you know, the usual

[jlh]

You can blame this bit of wibbling on it being 1am, or whatever, or on a crisis of confidence caused by some unavoidable external circumstances, but I'm annoyed. And hopefully this isn't wanky. I'm sure that tomorrow after some sleep I'll be back to being happy with my unimportant non-status, bringing things to people who wouldn't otherwise get them, but tonight I'm super cranky.

So I finished reading that idolslash story tonight and I have to say, I was reminded that the real reason I don't read singerslash most of the time is that they are so mean to Ryan and Simon and I admit it makes me sad! Ryan is some sort of pathetic lech who lusts after singers he'll never get a piece of. I mean, I know that Ryan is ridiculous, but the man is not a cretin; he does have his appeal. And then there's Simon, the man you call in to be the big bad, when regular viewers of the show should have realized by now that his criticisms are more nuanced and almost always correct. I mean, the villain in a David Cook story? He loves David Cook! I know that I am a little extreme in my hatred of cliche, but seriously, can we get a little more original, please?

You know, when I got so upset last season about how no one cared that Ryan kissed Simon—I was the only person I knew who posted about it, and there was no mention of it in a reaction thread in someone's LJ that I was reading at the time—I thought, well, this is part of that whole thing where Simon's too old for the fangirls, and so they sort of don't care. Or, they vaguely think Ryan and Simon are doing something anyway, so the kiss wasn't surprising.

But now I'm beginning to think that actually, idolslashers that aren't Rymon types (there isn't much crossover and what there is can mostly be labelled "people who talk to clio") hate Ryan and Simon. They want to see Ryan humiliated by lusting after the singer they're slashing with someone else. They want to see Simon in an AU being completely vanquished by the AU version of their favorite singer, whether that singer ever actually had a problem with Simon or not.

It's really discouraging, because I'm working on this story that, sure, I don't really think more than 10 or so people are going to read, but I really like it, and I was planning on cross posting it of course to the rymon community and here but also to idolslash but now I'm not so sure. I'd like it to have every chance to be seen by more people, but is larger Idolfandom just so hostile to Ryan and Simon that I shouldn't even bother?

Yesterday jm_cats commented that he was posting his story at cakeforever because if it wasn't locked then he'd get harassed, etc. and I said, you know, I have stories up at idolslash and I've never been harassed by anyone. Is this because the VftW losers also hate Ryan and Simon so much that they don't care or sort of think they're fucking, where they're offended by anyone suggesting that the singers could be? Or is it because they don't care about Ryan and Simon full stop?

I know, this is a whole stupid entry, and it is what it is. I could talk about them til I'm blue in the face, and the only bit of idolslash of mine people are going to read is the cake story. And you know, if it were just, they're younger and hotter, I mean, I thought I'd made my peace with that. But I'm beginning to think that isn't the problem at all.

Is it better to be mysteriously ignored, or to be outright hated? And is it wrong that it makes me sad to see it?

Comments

[strawberrytatoo.livejournal.com]

I was also really sad to see that Simon had been made the villain in that story, I really loved it up until that point. And ditto on the creey Ryan thing. I mean, seriously? He´s a sweetheart, really and, even though he is unintentionally hilarious at times, he can be awesome as well.

There was another David C/Michael J story I was reading, where there was slight Rymon in it also, and I've seen a few Rymon ppl over at the flyboys community, so I don't think they would be hostile to a Rymon story. (Or I hope not, because that makes me really really sad)

I have to agree with you, I don't know what it is about Rymon that´s so unpopular. I talked to my best friend about them when I first got into the pairing, and she said "You know, I can totally see them together. But I just couldn't read it" and I think that many people think like that, for whatever reason.

But I am really really looking forward to reading your story, so curious to see the other pairings, and what kind of AU it will be!

[dana-kujan.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I didn't read the story you've referred to and doubt that I would outside a desert island/nothing else to read scenario because, as you know, I have almost zero interest in the contestants in a slash or relationship context. So, maybe it's an age thing, i.e. I'm in Ryan/Simon's age bracket whereas most idolslash writers (though I can think of one glaring exception) are in the contestants' age bracket. Though the age thing doesn't and shouldn't explain the hostility. Maybe that's just bad, shallow, or unformed writing.

Along with this is the issue of longevity. Ryan and Simon have been with us for about 8 years. That's a long time for some fans to sustain interest. (Though I agree with you that they should understand their "characters" a lot better by now.) While I don't understand the fan writers who latch onto a new pair (in some cases almost immediately with no underpinning logic), I can see that that's the extent of their interest: the flavor of the season. Maybe it's just a pretty boy porn thing. Porn doesn't lend itself to or require development, and casts by "lech," "villain," "bottom," etc.

I don't know if anything I've said helped or even made sense. But you have every right to be cranky and frustrated.

In which I make up theories about stuff I know nothing about...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Okay, I have no knowledge of this fandom at all, but mention of fangirls makes me wonder if it's an age issue that sort of gets tied in to something else. Like if Idol is about young people trying to make it and show people, maybe they naturally make Ryan and Simon a stand-in for "adults" or "the establishment?" The fact that Simon's comments are spot-on most of the time probably makes it worse, making them wish that it was just personal or Simon being out of touch. Like they're not ready to be able to conceive of a day where adults know something and want what's best for you.

Ryan maybe is another aspect of that--omg, who's this older, non-singing guy doing interacting with the young stars at all?

It's like the two of them wind up carrying a whole different aspect of the story. The couple is the romance and Ryan and Simon are the world at large because they're part of the world at large?

Part of what's funny about them is that they're both far more successful than anybody on the show since they're older and have found ways to stay in the game. It's very different than being one of the contestents who are singers winning a contest. What the two of them do is probably harder to understand. So they seem like they just do nothing (they talk while others have to sing) and that also turns them into people who are jealous?

[eilujspark.livejournal.com]

I really hope you post that Rymon story. You know that there are plenty of us that are just dying for a new one. I understand wanting a bigger audience, but many people just don't care about them beause they are so old hat.

Ah well. I like the relatively small Rymon fandom anyways. I don't think anyone has been or will be harassed, but if it were to happen I wouldn't worry about it too much. They are the idiots that are reading the story regardless of how much they think the idea sucks. How dumb is that?

As for how they are portrayed in other stories, I don't ever read any other slash, so I don't really care. LOL. But if it bothers you, do you make comments about it?

[aholder277.livejournal.com]

You are the only place I check any longer for Rymon fiction because the other sites seem to basically suck.

Here are MY issues with them (and I do not want to offend any other Idol slashers, so accept my apology for my massive generalizations, PLEASE)

1) I think that most of the people that write other Idol slash are too young.
2) They fall in love with the LATESTS greatest Idol contestants and lack imagination and writing skills and pigeon-hole Simon and Ryan into these strange bloated characterizations of themselves.
3) They think of Simon and Ryan as too old to slash any singers with. And frankly, I agree with them. I refuse to read anything with Ryan or Simon slashed with someone who barely has hair-down-there. It completely grosses me out. COMPLETELY. I check the pairings and wade through all the ishy couples and look for Rymon. There never are any. YOU are my only hope, Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[aholder277.livejournal.com]

Ooh. And it's funny that you mention the kiss from last season that went practically unnoticed. I noticed it and even made a wallpaper out of Ryan's comment in reference to it the next day on his radio show. I posted it to a Ryan site and got no good comments, but 3 comments wondering why I would waste such a cute design and picture of Ryan on such a strange thing that Ryan did and how he should be embarrassed. It nearly made me cry. The wallpaper turned out cute and I wasted it by sharing it with a bunch of people that don't like Rymon at all. TOTAL sadness. It was the first wallpaper I did in a LONG time and it's going to be the last too. People suck. But don't let my tale of woe depress you and keep you from writing. We NEED Rymon fics really badly!!! REALLY BADLY. I'm an infrequent poster and I'm sorry about that, but I really appreciate the Rymon writers. If I'm here there are more like me out there! Write for us! We're few but powerful! :)

[rymonrocks.livejournal.com]

I really hope you do post your new Rymon fic and im gutted that there seems to be less response to Rymon at the moment.
For me more than any other couple that people slash, i think Rymon could be genuine boyfriends, but maybe that's the problem. For years people thrived on the speculation of what is going on between them, if the flirting was just for show etc, but recently Rymon themselves are just so domesticated with eachother. They refer to eachother's habits so intimately and of course Ryan's constant claiming last season, along with the fact that Terri virtually dropped off the radar.

Im wondering if people assume them to be a real life couple so they have less to imagine for fics? I think im probably not making sense here, but aside from Simon's age, i don't get how Rymon interest has dropped when they have the longest running history of flirting on Idol, along with the fact that they almost always socialise together. Ryan kissed him on live TV for god's sake! and Simon calls him 'darling' and ends his phone calls with 'lots of love', what more ammo do people need, how many straight male friends act like this?!!

There must be more evidence to point to them being a real life couple than any other pairing that is written about. Ryan literally can't help himself sometimes, he almost screams 'HE'S MY BOYFREIND!!' when people talk about Simon, lol.

Another problem is that people just don't 'get' Simon. Anyone who still casts him as 'Mr Nasty' just doesn't get my vote because he is about so much more than that.

**RANT OVER**I BET YOU ALL WISH YOU COULD TAKE THAT LAST 5 MINUTES OF YOUR LIFE BACK, HEHE**

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I know, the story was really interesting—better than the vampire one, which was a little bit of a mess—and then Simon showed up and I was like, can we not? I was all about leaving piles of reviews and now I'm just like, whatever.

It's really good to know that they float around in the background of other people's stories; that would be the limit of what I'd want. It reminds me of Seamus/Dean floating around in the background of stories back in my HP days.

Unpopular, like, I can handle? It's the worry about folks hating on them that makes me sad. I think that Yuletide and Fandom Secrets have really convinced me that there are lots of rare or not-as-popular things that people really want, and even if those people are fewer and quieter, they want the things even more. So I'd never stop writing, but I do want more to read. (hint, hint)

The story is almost done, but I'm glad I'm writing it first and posting it when finished, because it's complicated and I've gone back and revised things in the earlier chapters several times! It means so much that people are looking forward to it!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I think there's always piles of bad, shallow, uninformed writing, specifically because so many readers aren't really looking for development but to get a particular itch scratched. Even non-smut slash sort of satisfies a fetish, say of the way that two characters interact, or just the idea of pretty boy porn, though I think with Idol the rock-star aura adds to it. I think that's why so much slash is just two characters and not an ensemble, because people's interests are so narrow and focused. And many's the time I have rued my long attention span!

It did make me cranky because it was a fun story and then it was really disappointing.

[lillijulianne.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the story, but I wonder if it's not generational Most of these people are young, and when you're young you a) mostly don't have any interest in romance and sex among older people, and Simon at least is clearly older by their lights b) tend to respond in a certain way to older people who can be considered in some way powerful. I mean, they identify with the singers, and from that point of view Simon is an intimidating authority figure and Ryan's role is somewhat manipulative.

It was funny even for me, doing a high school AU, in that some of the casting seemed foreordained- Simon HAD to be dean of discipline. Obviously I wanted him to be a nuanced character, but I'm also, you know, old now, and send people to the office myself.

[lillijulianne.livejournal.com]

and of course i should really read the comments first, as others have said it more succinctly...

[lillijulianne.livejournal.com]

re the vftw losers, actually that's interesting and i hadn't thought about it. i think there are probably a few things going on there. one is that rymon attract far fewer screaming fans, and having screaming fans is one good way to attract vftw vitriol; the fact that a lot of the more devout fans are hostile or indifferent toward rymon is enough to get them a pass from some. another is that there's that bitter frustrated musician, or whatever, thread weaving through the whole vtfw phenomenon. they hate the talent because they don't think it's talented enough, or that it's selling out/misusing its talent, or that it's getting unfair boosts from being thought hot when it should be about the music, yadda yadda. simon's a businessman and never pretends to be otherwise. ryan they perceive as a whore, but one without artistic pretension. and neither man, unlike cake or cook or daughtry, attracts the women they wish wanted to fuck them.

Re: In which I make up theories about stuff I know nothing about...

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Like, I understand why people don't care about them and not so much why people make them into fools, but I think the revenge for the show is as good a reason as any. It's tiresome because I've never really had that child/YA attitude of "adults are the enemy" that I'm supposed to have had, but rock on if these people think so.

And it's true; they are far more successful than anyone else. But they are also ADORABLE and I feel that should be self-evident!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I will absolutely be posting the Rymon story—that was never a question!! I suppose at this point they are old hat, but then you'd think there'd be all this old fic lying around and that really isn't the case.

I love being in a smaller place, to be honest—I wrote seamus/dean in HP and that was also a smaller ship—but what I hate is people being mean about them, especially when it was rather unexpected and to be honest, lame of that writer! It made for a less interesting story.

You know, commenting is sort of saying "you didn't write the story I wanted to read" and there's really no good way of putting that, so no. I had had every intention of reviewing that story, so I'm really glad I waited until the end!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

1) I think that explains a lot of the Cookleta—pure self-insertion I wish D Cook could take my virginity stuff.
2) Hence my distaste of singerslash most of the time, because it's so flavor of the week.
3) Ryan actually isn't that much older than, say, Michael Johns; he's 34. Back in the day there was a lot of "Clyan" and of course Ryan then was just a year or so older than the older singers. But Simon, yeah, ew. And often it isn't the older singers that get all the attention.

There was never any question of my posting it here and links at rymonitor and flaming potato; it was more whether it was worth it to put a link at idolslash. I'm thinking I might as well, but I'm so excited that people are looking forward to it!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

You need to post that wallpaper to flaming_potato right now if you haven't already (and I don't remember that you did). People there would LOVE IT SERIOUSLY. I want to know what quote you used and I can't wait to see the cute design you did!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Yes you did, and it's cramped and has no AC continues to be my favorite thing that Ryan has ever said to Simon because it's so damn intimate!

You know, that whole conspiracy theory brigade, and the people who think that the singers and the judges are in some kind of war, really do think that Simon is the enemy. It's insane, because Simon really does want the good ones to succeed. The smart ones take his advice.

I'm glad now that I posted that to give people a reason to rant!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

The most frustrating thing about the whole youth thing is that I was reading adult books by then. I wasn't so focused only on teenagers. But then, teen media hadn't evolved to the place it is now. And the identification with the singers—I guess that's why there's so much passion behind all the conspiracy theories, while I watch it relatively dispassionately. Well, relative to them.

Ugh, vftw. I was talking to a friend the other night about Ryan not coming out and why and I said, you know, those asshole 20 year old guys don't even count because they consider Ryan to be "as good as gay" now anyway. And the girls that date Ryan and Simon would never date those guys, because they are girls-who-date-powerful-men, not girls-who-fuck-rockers.

Of course when I first read this comment I was still in "woe" and "contrary" moods so it was more like, "woe for Ryan and Simon are not important enough for vftw to be wanky about" though I recognize that's sort of silly. And I didn't realize the weird antipathy to Rymon in Ryan fandom that is alluded to in one of the comments above. I find that strange, but maybe they want to date him or something?

It really shouldn't astound me how much all of this is motivated by sexual attraction or lack thereof; I think that's why I keep landing in weird places, because that's not where my fannishness comes from. When I'm crushing on some famous person, I don't like sharing it—hearing other people say, "yes, he's hot" makes me feel all weird. I'm happier pretending that it's just me, so I never talk about my crushes!

[lilith20godrich.livejournal.com]

I cannot wait to read your story - your rymon stories always brilliant.

It so sad - and to be honest, really surpising for me to hear about such hatred toward Simon and Ryan from idolslashers, because I think that their relationship is incredibly interesting and fascinating. They are ultimate Idol slash pair - and in my opinion, they are way more interesting than any of the contestants on the show.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

It's irritating, and shows once again how spoiled I was last year by the Cake writers, who rarely were so obnoxious in their treatment of the two, but perhaps that was partially because I was so involved and reading their stories, and writing my own with Rymon in them. I like FlyBoys but not enough to really throw myself into their mix--it isn't something I want to write--and that could be part of the difference.

Of course, I totally agree that their relationship is fascinating, because it's so, well, odd. They're so open, and yet not, and so intimate, and yet not. Seriously, these stories write themselves!

[lilith20godrich.livejournal.com]

God, their relationship is insane.
They have so much power over each other, especially Simon over Ryan, and sometimes it's a like a trainwreck, but you just can't look away. And then next day - and they all smiles and flirting and touches all over again.
And of course, you right - Ryan can be so ridiculous, and he is embodiment of mass culture, but I can’t help but like this little elf, as Joel McHale likes to call him.
And I like him most of all in his moments with Simon, because almost always this moments are very real and raw and emotional.

[aholder277.livejournal.com]

You've mentioned flaming potato before but from what I can see that hasn't been updated since 2007. Isn't that true? Want me to just email you the wallpaper? Hell, you can have it. I don't want it anymore...

[jlh.livejournal.com]

That's because like many rps comms, it's locked--you have to be a member to see the entries. I don't think the mods have to approve you or anything, you just join. The latest entry is today, actually!