(no subject)

[jlh]

ETA: Thanks to everyone who commented on this post about feminism; your perspectives really helped. I did edit the tumblr post a little. I've also un-privated the previous post.

Comments

[wishfulclicking]

You should only stay silent unless you actually want to.

On a fandom note, I will be watching out for your m/q fic and any of your tenwoman stuff that's in fandoms that I read in.

[jlh]

Thanks! I know I keep saying this but it means A LOT.

[meredith]

I thought your post was great and reasonable, for what it's worth. You are totally a feminist, as you say. But I see and understand how it can get discouraging, feeling as if not sliding into that specific kind of mainstream Jezebel feminism negates the claims you make about yourself. I've felt that way too, and about other social justice movements on the internet in addition to feminism.

[jlh]

Thanks!

Yeah, as soon as I look at social justice on the internet outside of fandom, I start to feel like it's just about a lot of screaming. And maybe that's because fandom IS on the internet, and we're talking about things on the internet. While the other movements are mostly talking about things off it, yet using the same weird combative blogger tone that doesn't really seem to get anyone anyplace.

[stinaleigh]

I went back and re-read your post on tumblr. I still think you are a feminist. I don't think that the living on your own part has anything to do with whether you are a feminist or not. How you live in general and your opinions and feelings are more indicative of being a feminist rather than your living arrangements. You know that you can support yourself. You know that other women can support themselves. You demonstrate that in your life and the causes you support. Not being afraid to live alone (especially after some of the things you have experienced) is a symbol of being a strong person who is comfortable in themselves. In my opinion, that is what a feminist is, someone who is comfortable in being female in whatever situation they find themselves in and who knows that they can do whatever it is they want to do (if they put forth the effort). I must admit that I don't read the feminist blogosphere because it just makes me want to punch the screen too much.

[jlh]

Well, your opinions and feelings can't possibly be what counts because if that were true then the feminist blogosphere wouldn't be in this constant state of calling each other out. They'd be like, we feel this and then they'd be, I don't know, doing things? But they're pretty much screaming all the time, so I think that what you feel and think might not have as much to do with it as what you do! But unfortunately I am not out having all that sex they're always talking about, so I think I'm SOL on the feminism tip. I also don't get as angry as they do about the stuff they get angry about? So I was looking for another basis but as you and my other friend have pointed out, living alone is not that basis! And I don't really feel like I have another one. I mean, yes, I'm comfortable being a woman in any situation--to the extent that I can make the claim that I am a woman--and I think that it shouldn't keep me from doing things, but the whole "I think that women are people" thing is obviously not enough to qualify as being a feminist.

[flourish]

I am remarkably close to ditching the whole 'feminist' thing, but I feel like I still want to identify with SOMETHING, and 'womanist' probably shouldn't be it because that term is so closely associated with women of color and I don't fall into that category.

Bah.

[jlh]

They do seem to be interested in something incredibly narrow--which really, one could say of so much of the movement going all the way back to Seneca--and one wishes that the word could be expanded instead of contracting.

And you know, it isn't just that womanism is something WoC's started, but also that it is itself doing something fairly specific, with which I have MANY MORE SYMPATHIES but still do not entirely align.

I don't know. Maybe it's about not identifying with something, just doing stuff? That's where I keep ending up, in some kind of hippie bullshit rejection of your bourgeois labels, man.

[flourish]

LOL. Well, to some extent I think that we've got to, because if you try to expand labels you get in trouble too. (For instance: queer. Man, the arguments I have seen.)

As for womanism, yeah, there's plenty more there than the WoC thing, but for me that's the first hurdle - trying not to butt into spaces where I might not be invited.

[jlh]

Good point on expansion. I guess rather: I wish the label weren't contracting, and I wish that it didn't feel like these shouty blog people had a stranglehold on what the word means. Also people say it just means someone who thinks women are equal to men, but in practice that isn't how it shakes out.

It's funny, since I started this discussion people are all, "you can be whatever feminist you want!" which is so the opposite of the actual conversation that's going on among the feminists! If I didn't know better I'd be all, I should start my own blog! But brother, you couldn't pay me. Being called out on tumblr once is really enough.

[stinaleigh]

Yes "I think that women are people" does qualify as being a feminist. You believe in the equality of the sexes, and therefore you are a feminist.

This may not be your thoughts on the subject, but this is how I see it.

[ignaz]

What?

[jlh]

I made a post on tumblr about being a feminist, which you know, an incredibly contentious thing! and a friend commented on my post on LJ, where I'd just linked, and was questioning part of it, so I took down the LJ post and then edited the tumblr post.

Was that what you were asking?

[dana_kujan]

Jinx! You owe me a drink, Ig.

Seriously, J, I have no idea what this is about or what brought it on, but I will say this: Feminist is a word that has been much maligned, co-opted, and redefined over the past 40+ years. As a result, no one owns that word, which is actually the good news. Women are multi-faceted, incredible beings. No two of us are the same, hence no two of us define that word the same way. And that's a huge part of feminism: having your own mind and holding your own opinions.

Edited to add something about the right and inevitability of disagreeing... telling anyone who gets too disagreeable to "fuck off"... but I'm too tired.

[ignaz]

*hands you a gin & tonic*

[jlh]

It was brought on by one too many people linking me to ontd_feminism, being attacked on tumblr, watching people attack each other, and some pro-choice extremist positions on adoption. I guess I'd say, I agree with you, and I thought that what you say is true. But I'm surprised how many people don't, and are fighting about the word in a way that just seems personal and vitriolic. When you see people that you feel are intelligent and that you respect nodding along, it can get a little confusing.

[dana_kujan]

Fuck 'em! Though that may be the gin & tonic talking.