i haven't had this much fun since the last time fandom was unfathomably callous and racist

[jlh]

Ever since bookshop tweeted about it yesterday afternoon I've had a good time (you know, for versions of good time that mean "read in abject horror, laugh because it's so bad you can't believe it's happening") watching the unfolding reactions to a story posted at spn_j2_bigbang wherein Jensen is a doctor working for MSF in Haiti following the earthquake and Jared is a photojournalist and they fall in love against the background of disaster, etc. I mean, once I tell you the premise you know the story—brave crusading doctor, self-depricating about his impact and working in Haiti to escape failures in his own life; arrogant and cynical journalist running from hot spot to hot spot looking for the next juicy story and never letting himself get involved, realizing the doctor is the Real Thing and inspired to be the Real Thing in his own work, blah blah blah buttsex.

Bonus: Jensen's faithful Haitian nurse Abraham, who drives him around the countryside and acts as an intermediary generally while fulfilling plenty of horrible cultural stereotypes that aren't even limited to Magical Negro. He has such an impact on Jared and Jensen that when they go back to the states (with his blessing) they name their large black cat after him, because you know, Abraham was so large. And black.

amazonziti has a billion links here. I'd recommend checking out bossymarmalade's choice list of quotes from the fic. My favorite comment of the entire spnpermanon thread:

What all these people defending her don't seem to get is that some of us don't CARE if she "gets it". I have no personal investment in a random stranger's growth as regards to privilege, race, and society. I DO have a personal investment in not having racist tropes and depictions spread across lj fandom.

And if she refuses to GET IT, I will settle for her stopping because it makes people angry and she doesn't want to deal with it.

Calling out racism is also, like the Haiti tragedy, NOT ABOUT THE GROWTH OF PRIVILEGED WHITE PEOPLE.

If you're my friend, or if I'm connected to you, and I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I'm going to let you know. If I don't yet know you well, it honestly might take me a little longer, because it's not a fun conversation to have. But if I don't know you? I'm not here to facilitate your growth. I'm just … not.

Comments

[longtimegone]

I saw that last night. *facepalm*

hey yeah it's kyoto_idol

[yoru_no_koe]

I have tried about six times to type a response to this that doesn't make me sound like a fucking tool, but I'm failing. I'm just going to try to ask this question.

>Calling out racism is also, like the Haiti tragedy, NOT ABOUT THE GROWTH OF PRIVILEGED WHITE PEOPLE.

If one calls a privileged white person who wrote bullshit like this out on racism, isn't that so that they, and others in fandom who didn't see what was wrong with it, can learn from it and understand what they did wrong and try to fix themselves? I mean, I hope that they WOULD, but clearly there are a lot of people who refuse. If there's no desire for growth then why try to bring it to the person's attention?

Am I missing the point?

What I don't want to say here is "But you are a PoC and you should care about whether strangers on the internet get a clue!" Oh GOD I do not want to say that and that's why I'm afraid I sound like a tool in here. I'm trying to understand what's the point of the debate if it's not out of the hope that people will get a clue—not just the author and her negligent beta team but even somebody else who liked the story or some other random fanperson looking on and saying "Gee, that is fucked up, I'm going to take more care when I write."

I wonder if lurking around fandom secrets and metafandom has made me hyperaware of my own various privileges lately. I might be turning the lens inward too much and missing the big picture. So, um, if you ever have cause to call me out on anything, frankly, I'll really appreciate it.

Re: hey yeah it's kyoto_idol

[jlh]

I would never call you out. I'd send you an email, because I know you, and I care about you, so I wouldn't like, say something on my LJ.

I think the important part is in the statement above that: I have no personal investment in a random stranger's growth as regards to privilege, race, and society. I DO have a personal investment in not having racist tropes and depictions spread across lj fandom.

So the reason people are calling it out is not so people can learn and try to fix it and grow and all that. People are calling it out because it's wrong and they don't want to see it. The reason that a whole bunch of people calling this out isn't dogpiling on the original writer is because it isn't about the writer. The writer made a mistake, whatever, people make mistakes, racist society, etc etc etc. I literally don't care about that writer's personal growth or even the personal growth of the people around them. Calling this story out is much more about saying: in fandom it is not okay to do this. You can figure out what went wrong, you can understand that it was wrong, you can be resentful but scared of the PoC Cabal, whatever it takes so that this story doesn't get written again.

So unless you're my friend, or someone else I'm invested in and give a shit about and actually want to say, "hey, dude, that actually wasn't cool and here's why," which I would always do privately and one-on-one, when I call out stupid shit it isn't so the person who said some stupid shit can understand their privilege. It's so I don't have to hear more stupid shit, because hearing stupid shit adds stress to my day and sucks up energy I could be using to like, write my Star Trek fanfic.

Re: hey yeah it's kyoto_idol

[bflyw]

Hi - I am jumping in here. I came over from amazonziti's post.

I might misunderstand - in that case I'm sorry..... but aren't:
I DO have a personal investment in not having racist tropes and depictions spread across lj fandom.
and
Calling out racism is also, like the Haiti tragedy, NOT ABOUT THE GROWTH OF PRIVILEGED WHITE PEOPLE.
kind of contradictive?

I mean - the only way racist tropes and epictions may be stopped from spreading across lj fandom is if people (white prievileged people) learn/change (learning/changing = growing, right?)....So unless we grow we aren't learning, and the evil will continue to be spread?
I know that we (the white people) aren't the important here - and it's our responsibility to educate ourself - but istn't the reason for calling out racism to stop it from being spread to get people to educate themselves?

As a poor, poor example.... I often post about my own issues (being work disabled, my frustrations in having to listen to people time and time again tell me how 'lucky I am that can be home all day' when all I want is to be well and able to part-take in a job - to be able to have a social life etc....) and when I do post this - it is because I want people to learn! Because I want them to think differently the next time they see someone disabled, and not think "lucky guy, he doesn't have to work!" It's not about THEM - it's about me not wanting to be met with that attititude again and again, and to do that I need people to learn - and for them to learn, I'll have to give it a voice. So it's still about me, even though it is to make them grow!

(just trying to understand what is being said, honestly).

Re: hey yeah it's kyoto_idol

[jlh]

No. I think you're conflating two different things. On the one hand there's saying "this is not cool" and on the other hand there's saying "let me help you understand why this is not cool."

It's interesting how people skip down to the bottom of that quote. At the start, the anon says:

I have no personal investment in a random stranger's growth as regards to privilege, race, and society. I DO have a personal investment in not having racist tropes and depictions spread across lj fandom.

You can have the latter without necessarily making sure of the former. You can shame or shun or whatever people into not spreading racist tropes and depictions across LJ fandom without necessarily making sure that every single person who needs to understand and grow has the space to do that. That's not my job, to ensure the growth of other people. It really, really isn't. Sometimes I might help, but really I think it's their own job.

In your example, you don't want to be met with that attitude, but always doing it from the point of other people growing takes a lot of energy. You can expend that energy say, in your work place, or on your own flist, but you can't expend that energy to all of fandom or all of the internet. Also, if you are always listening to people asking you questions full of fail, and then patiently trying to take them from A to Z about ableism, every time they have a question, then it DOES become more about them than about you. You should be able to pick and choose when you engage in that way! But at the same time, you have the right to not have to deal with ableist shit separate from doing that educational work. Like, you don't have to do the work to "deserve" the treatment. Perhaps other able-bodied allies can do some of that work. Perhaps that person who said that thing is mostly just an asshole, and won't be worth your time, so you're like, "Okay, you just need to stop talking now."

Like, I certainly have some way to go in erasing ableist terms from my working vocabulary. If you were to point out, in something I said to you, where I had done that, I would say, "thanks!" But you don't have to go on to explain why and all this crap. You can just say, "yeah, not a good word, can you stop using it?" and I can say, "sure, didn't know, thanks for telling me!" and then go look it up for myself on the internet to understand why. I don't have to ask you. You've made your space a little safer, but you don't have to make sure I grow as a person.

I've been thinking more about those "threats" that some white/straight/male/able-bodied writers make about how the PoC/LGBTQAI/feminist/disabled critics make them "afraid" to write PoC/LGBTQAI/female/disabled characters, as though the writing of those characters is some kind of favor, like they're going out of their way, instead of, I don't know, depicting the world as it is with lots of different people in it. I used to be like, "you know, you need to think about that, and read up" but now honestly my reaction is "maybe it's better for the world if you only write white/straight/male/able-bodied characters, since you don't really care about anyone else enough to know some in person and be able to write about them as real people." So that's the difference between making sure someone else grows—frankly, I could give a shit if these assholish "it's all about me and my comfort level" writers grow as people—and making sure I don't have to read racist/homophobic/sexist/ableist bullshit.

Re: hey yeah it's kyoto_idol

[yoru_no_koe]

I think I mistook the phrase "calling out" (which would be in a public forum, I guess) to mean "pointing things out, in public or private."

Thanks for clarifying. I think I wasn't getting it just because it's utterly inconceivable to me that when people say something like this is NOT OKAY that somebody wouldn't accept that they'd done something wrong and understand why and freaking learn from it. But it's more about establishing what's NOT OKAY in fandom as a whole?

Maybe it's just my own hope imposed on the events that there is something good to come out of it, which is that people looking on will pick up a clue or two…that even if the writer is unrepentant and idiotic, other writers looking on will think "Oh. That is a shitty thing, and now I know why, and I can work toward not doing things like that" and then, hopefully, that sort of story won't get written again—at least, not as much. Because unless society is growing as a whole (which takes fucking forever if it happens at all) there are always going to be influxes of new fans and writers who are young, entitled and oblivious.

I can recognize in retrospect that I was one too. Although I haven't written a lot of fic, and certainly not romance AUs set in Darfur. Oi.

Re: hey yeah it's kyoto_idol

[jlh]

You're right, I hope that people grow. But the danger is in deciding that it is the responsibility of the less privileged people to educate someone who has privilege in a situation where the person who doesn't have privilege has already been hurt. It's a lot to expect and honestly leads to this situation where you don't "deserve" good treatment unless you are willing to engage in the work of making sure people grow.

For example. If a straight person says something heterosexist, and a lesbian friend says, "that's actually not cool" it is really not the responsibility of the lesbian in that situation to sit down and calmly explain to the straight person why it wasn't cool, and answer all their questions, and then reassure them that no, the lesbian doesn't dislike them or think they're a homophobe or an asshole or whatever, especially since in this situation, the lesbian is probably feeling really hurt to have heard that heterosexist thing! So we're asking people who are already feeling hurt to swallow their hurt feelings and expend energy educating the straight people for the benefit of the community. When really, it's not the lesbian's responsibility—certainly not in that moment and possibly not at all—to educate the straight person. It is the responsibility of the straight person. There are so many resources, so many things to look up, and while being called out on one's privilege can hurt, the person who was hurt by your privilege is more hurt than you are.

So I'm a black girl, I see that fic, and I think it's some bullshit. It's not my job to talk to this total stranger writer and say, "See, this is how and why you shoulnd't have written that." And honestly, I don't have a huge problem with the writer. I more have a problem with the system—that fic passed through a lot of hands. Why didn't any of them say "hey, that's not cool"? The awareness of the writer, whatever. The further perfection of the system so that stories like that don't get posted on Big bangs and it doesn't take a few hours for anyone to say anything? That's what I want.

And I'm sure this has happened? But in my ideal world it shouldn't have to be the black folks calling out this shit. Everyone should be offended. So then the white allies can carry more of the weight because they aren't as hurt by the implications of the event.

[amazonziti]

I really like that quote you chose from the anonmeme. SO MUCH WORD.

Recently a bunch of commenting has been going around to the tune of, "She's taken her story down, so why don't you all shut up now?" and it is so crazy-making to have to explain this in small small words. The original author was not actually the point of this whole discussion. She was the catalyst, and, in all honesty, it was useful to have to her to be angry at, because anger at racism in general can be really hard to articulate. But the withdrawal of her fic doesn't turn off the anger and hurt like a light switch; we all have more to talk about.

There's also, "She's taken her story down. What more do you want?" as though the majority of discussion has been about demanding anything from her, and as though our continuing to talk about this incident of racism is somehow her punishment. Yes, hundreds of people in fandom are spending time and energy to... what? Focus on this girl and make sure she feels really, really bad? The idea behind that, again, is that the most important thing to think about here is a privileged white woman who wrote a racist fic, and not racism itself and/or the feelings of actual real-life people of color and the people who value them as human beings.

Um. Sorry to bust into your journal and rant! But I was inspired.

Thanks for posting and for linking to me, BTW. =)

[jlh]

It really grabbed me because I'd never thought about it in that way before, and then I was like, my god, that is EXACTLY IT. It's not about the writer; it's about the system that allowed that fic to be posted.

The idea behind that, again, is that the most important thing to think about here is a privileged white woman who wrote a racist fic, and not racism itself and/or the feelings of actual real-life people of color and the people who value them as human beings.

OMG that's it exactly. I didn't even think that yeah, it's yet another way to not only be derailing, but also to make it all about the feelings of the privileged people and not the people who have actually been hurt. Because god, I just—she is not the one who has been the most hurt by what has happened. She just isn't.

And as for the ad homimem attacks, you know, there are plenty of people online who are willing to call you a see-you-next-tuesday for not replying to comments on fics, so really, let's not make it all about that.

I am now putting you on my reading list as you are friends with Rawles and watching many shows I am watching (and shipping many things I ship!)!!

[amazonziti]

Rawles is actually the person to whom I owe my willingness to be publicly anti-racist on the Internet. Her "Nyota Uhura is not a white girl" post was what first made me think I might not be crazy to have all these ~feelings, and if I did have thoughts and feelings I would not be alone in having them. I like that you like her! BRB, subscribing to you, too.

I SEE YOU LIKE ADAM LAMBERT. \o/ I like you more and more.

The focus on the ad hominem attacks is also ridiculously derailing just because the ratio of ACTUAL DISCUSSION and thoughts and feelings and anti-racism to "OMG DIAF" is gloriously high. Like five people were cruel on her post. I guess, vaguely, I'm sorry? But I hardly think that's the most important thing to focus on at the moment.

I don't think I'll be updating the Blue Whale Post of Doom again tonight, but when I do tomorrow, do you mind if I link here?

[jlh]

I do like Adam Lambert but my heart belongs to Ryan and Simon, to be honest. I have shipped them since season 4 and I'm so sad that Simon will be gone. I have written great gaping piles of Rymon. They are love, and if you don't believe me I can prove it to you.

It is totally derailing, that's exactly what it is. Ugh. So much of the conversation even on the anonymeme was really thoughtful and interesting and wasn't about the writer as a person at all.

I don't mind! I think I ended up explaining anything that might be problematic for people so I don't expect anyone to freak out at this point. Thanks!

[evilinsanemonkey]

Hey, I'm here through amazonziti's post. I just wanted to let you know I linked to this post. If you'd rather I didn't, lemme know.

[jlh]

No, that's totally fine. Thanks for letting me know!