first times, established relationships, and breaking off from canon

[jlh]

So I was reading an essay on metafandom by minisinoo about suspension of disbelief in slash, in which she says:

This is why I tend to have problems with OTPs -- both slash and het. There's a sense of "assumed inevitability" that must be bought into off camera rather than built within the story itself. The writer assumes the reader accepts the pairing even before reading. As long as readers do, all is well ... but it won't convince those who don't already see it. (And that often includes me, I'm afraid.)

Frankly, there's little I see as a given about relationships. I want to be wooed into believing by a well-told tale. In turn, I extend that courtesy to my readers. I don't expect you, the reader, to see anything as a given, either. It's my job to sell it to you.

It's ASSUMPTION that kills the believability of a story. Show, don't assume. Build the case. Convince me.

This idea—that all ship fic has the burden of "selling the ship"—is something I've rejected for a while now, though I've never talked about it much specifically. But I do have a problem with it, and this essay makes it easier for me to organize those thoughts, finally.

I see this in a context of a lot of essays that get written about the "dangers" of the OTP or shipfic, who talk about fic for shippers being lazy whenever it doesn't completely make the case for a ship to the non-shipper. I don't see my job as a writer to be "selling" anyone about anything. I mean, I'm not a copywriter. I'm not putting in a carefully researched "reason to believe" with documentation available to the FTC upon request, or showing you the blue water pouring into the absorbent padding. If I wanted to do that, frankly I'd write an essay, which seems to be what this person wants me to do. (And have; I co-wrote the ship_manifesto on Seamus/Dean.) An essay is a document that is meant to convince, by design. It includes assertions and (hopefully) proof of those assertions. It plows into canon and finds those canon moments that establish the ship. Those essays link to fics that really are about convincing non-shippers about a ship—often, first-time fics that do all that heavy lifting.

But in a story, in order to convince a non-shipper of the validity of a ship, I would have to take the reader carefully by the hand either from the last moment of canon, or the last moment of canon from which I have broken off, and through every stage of the relationship until that relationship becomes sexual. (Obviously we're talking about non-canon ships here; canon does the work for you in canon ships.) That requires writing a first-time fic.

Now, I know that first-time fics are popular, but I don't always want to write a first-time fic, and I certainly don't always want to read a first-time fic. And in order for an established relationship fic to reach this level of convincing—to bear that burden of proof, to include that "reason to believe"—it has to have essentially a mini-first-time-fic embedded fairly close to the beginning of the fic. I don't want to always read or write a three-sentence first-time fic in the beginning of the established relationship fic. To me, that gets in the way of having the established relationship fic in the first place.

For example, I write all this Ryan/Simon, but except for the AUs, I've never actually written a Ryan/Simon first-time fic. I might never write one. I don't find the first time they realized they were attracted to each other—which I believe to be roughly a nanosecond after they met—to be all that interesting. I have written a sort-of "figuring out this is more than sex" fic, but even that is more Simon presenting himself and Ryan saying "okay" without a whole lot about Simon's journey—though I have alluded to it in other stories. Therefore, I haven't written that "convince you" Ryan/Simon fic. If you watch the show, and you're not seeing the ship, I probably haven't written anything that will "sell" you on the ship.

Sometimes in the reviews for Eight Ways from Sunday readers would say that I had sold them on Seamus/Dean, or less often, Draco/Ginny. (They were usually already sold on Harry/Hermione before reading it.) However, that wasn't my goal as a writer; I wanted to write a story about friendship and romance. I wasn't thinking, "these are the moments in canon that make me ship Seamus and Dean, and therefore I have to include references to them in this story in order to sell as many non-shippers on this pairing as possible." I just wrote a story, and hoped it was good, and hoped that the characters all interacted in a way that made sense for the relationships that I was setting up—romantic or not, slash or not.

I've also written smaller stories, like Pretty From Behind, where I don't say anything at all about how a non-canon pairing got together, even though the story is set some years in the future (in this instance, Harry and Hermione are married and in their late twenties). Pretty from Behind isn't that short—about 3000 words—but it also isn't about how Harry and Hermione got together. It's about Harry and Hermione exploring their sexuality with each other, mostly. And I'm not sure that I have to say how they got together, even though of course it's in the same universe as EWFS. That's in my head, sure, and I say that, but the reader is under no obligation to read the first story.

I read plenty of ship fics, usually for relationships that I ship, and I don't expect all of them to do all that heavy lifting from canon to the start of the fic. In fact, one of the things I like about established relationship fics is that they are free of that burden, and instead go on to a problem that I think is much more urgent, and ironically much less explored or expected to be explored in fic: what happens after they declare their great love? What happens after the wedding, the moving in together, the deliberate decision to be a couple? How do they work around their differences, especially if they got together in a highly charged situation? For example, with Harry/Draco, their having lots of sex within a highly codependent relationship during the war makes a lot of sense to me—but how they stay together after the excitement of war is over, how they have a peaceful life together (if they do) is much less clear. For that reason, I like post-canon established relationship fics—and I don't require that they give me all that much at the start about exactly how the couple got together.

It's for these reasons that I get a little testy when people talk to me about how all fics must lead the reader from canon to the start of the fic, or must "convince" the reader of a ship. I reject that all fics must do this. Certainly, that isn't true of all of my fics. And how limited we would be, if all fics had to bear this burden! But I also reject that the fics that don't do that are therefore lesser "OTP" fics. That label is a bit of a slur at this point, and I find that to be a shame.

Comments

[jenncho.livejournal.com]

I don't really believe anyone even should HAVE to sell someone when it comes to fic. I find that really 99% of the time if I'm reading fic, I've already made up my mind about ship preferences. I want to read about things that I don't see on the show/in the movie. Otherwise I'd just wait for a new episode or rewatch the movie.

If someone is reading Barney/Robin HIMYM fic, I don't think its to convert themselves into being fans. It's because they're ALREADY sold on the ship.

When 30 Rock first started I was originally into Jack/Liz. But then Floyd came along and I was into Liz/Floyd. And I didn't really think much about Jack/Liz again. The break between season 2 and 3 I started reading Liz/Jack fic. Mostly because someone on my FList commented on how they "never wanted to picture anything going into to Tina Fey let alone a penis"

This is where it got me. There was a news story a few years ago where someone found a finger in their Wendy's chili. So instead of never wanting to ever eat there again. I got in the car and got a Frostee.

So someone saying how awful Liz/Jack fic was made me go and read some. And most of what I read they were in an already established relationship. So I ended up reading like 100+ fics in one weekend and I got completely hooked on the ship. I don't think it was the authors or the stories itself that sold me really. It was just sort of accessing something that was already in the back of my head.

If you watch American Idol and in the back of your mind you're like "Simon and Ryan are adorable" and then go read some Rymon fic... chances are it'll push you over to full on shipping. Something makes you go out and look for the fic. You usually don't just HAPPEN TO STUMBLE UPON IT.

If someone linked me to some Smallville fic of Chloe and Clark chances are it's going to take a hell of a lot more than "showing me how they get together" for me to buy into the ship. Not because I have any personal feelings for them. I've seen one or two episodes of the show. I know nothing about these people. If someone posted 100 links of fic on their LJ of fic how they got together, chances are I'd scroll past it.

So basically long story short (too late), I don't really think it's your JOB as a writer to sell anything. I used to write fic and from my end I'd just want it to be even the tiniest bit believable regardless of if its first time or established. Setting the right tone and getting the voices of the characters down always seemed more important than "will I convert a non-shipper into one."

And if that is your priority as a reader to be convinced... skip it. Go to the next story. Or write your own. Put these characters into a situation where YOU believe that you'd buy into the ship. But don't expect other people to give a shit about your hang ups.

Having said all that, I do tend to enjoy getting together stories more than I do established stories. Not because I need to be convinced. Mostly because I like the build up. Like watching a Romantic Comedy. You know where it's going but getting there is the fun part.

But then there are the days where I like established fic. I'm usually already sold on a ship when I read those. Those tend to be more real I think. You can throw any two idiots in a room and eventually know they'll probably bang. But its after all that where it's tricky. Trying to show that these two people good for each other and here is why.

IDK. This went on way longer than I wanted to and I think my point was completely lost lol.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

You usually don't just HAPPEN TO STUMBLE UPON IT.

Well, that's it right there, isn't it? Either someone has recommended it to you, or it was written by someone on your flist who's probably been yammering about the canon and/or the pairing for a while, or you went looking for it. But as you say, in all of those cases you at least knew what you were getting into. If you already dig the ship, you'll dig the story to a certain extent; if you don't dig the ship, you won't dig the story no matter what the writer does; if you're indifferent to the ship, you're probably indifferent to the characters in the ship, and therefore will be indifferent to the story as a whole.

[rawles.livejournal.com]

This is a topic I've thought about a lot myself in the past. And where I come down is that it IS a conceit of a lot of shipfic where making the ship believable/understandable to the "layman" is secondary to or simply not a factor in the story that the writer is telling. But my reaction to that is not to feel like this fic is inherently lesser because of it, but rather to understand who it's being written for and why.

It is, I agree, completely valid to want to write established relationship fic or shipfic that is about a whole bunch of other things besides How These Two Got Together. And a major reason that these fics, many of which I've written myself, don't bother with the burden of proof or whatever is because the audience is often people who already want to read this. If I'm writing a ship about X/Y who aren't involved in the canon, I'm not necessarily writing this in order to explain to every random passerby every single thing that made me see the potential for this relationship in the canon. I'm writing it because there's something I want to explore here and, like you said, I'm going to hope that my portrayal of the characters and the relationship I construct is well done enough to make good sense. In some cases, hopefully it will also giving a sense of what I see in it in the canon. But if it doesn't, no big deal. As long as it makes internal sense as a piece of writing, I haven't failed at anything.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I'm not necessarily writing this in order to explain to every random passerby every single thing that made me see the potential for this relationship in the canon. I'm writing it because there's something I want to explore

I totally agree! I wonder the extent to which anyone really reads that much fic for a ship they don't ship. One of the pleasures of reading romance stories is to watch the interaction of the couple, but showing the way that the couple get along and are good together is not, IMO, the same as making a case for the ship itself.

Of course, the dynamics of fandom make this much more fraught, between het ship wars and the "believability" of slashing various female and male characters, such that it's rather dangerous, I think, not to be aware that some readers think all shipfics are arguments about canon. Which of course isn't true; I can write a non-canon ship without thinking it will be canon.

[kitsune13.livejournal.com]

Great essay! I agree with you, about not needing to "sell" a ship in an established-relationship fic, and so on. However, there are other reasons beyond "needing to sell the ship" that an established relationship fic would have, as you put it, a mini "how they got together" fic early on, and why some readers might want that. I am as OTP as humanly possible on Sam/Dean from Supernatural, and I don't need to be convinced in any way. However, I have very little interest in established relationship fics -- those just aren't the stories that grab me -- and the only way I can stay interested in an established-relationship story is if I have some sense about how they actually got together. Otherwise, I feel kind of... cheated. Again, this is all just my preferences as a reader, but I did want to point out that "convincing non-shippers" isn't necessarily the reason for people wanting that, either as writers or readers, you know? As you said yourself, the first-time story is extremely popular; including that "how they got together" bit just as easily functions as a way of capturing that particular rush of energy, rather than as a way of convincing non-shippers.

[flourish.livejournal.com]

IAWTC. I like first-time fic primarily because what I like about reading romance is re-capturing the rush of a new relationship. First time fic does that for me, but established relationship stories don't.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I think that's fine—I certainly didn't mean to say, "and also first-time fics suck." I don't prefer them, but I don't have a lot to say about people who do, particularly given that they make up, oh, 90% of fic readers. The reason I talked about it was, if we say that all fic has to sell the ship, it's much easier for a first-time fic than an ER fic, and ER fic would barely be able to exist. I prefer ER fic, scarce as it is, and would be sad if it was made even more scarce by that burden of proof!

[flourish.livejournal.com]

Very true! And not all first-time fic sells the ship, either.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I'm certainly well aware of the marked preference within fandom for first-time fics, and I think that's fine, even if it can lead to some repetition. I meant to say more that this idea of needing to convince "non-believers" is easier for a first-time fic to bear than an established relationship fic; that is, if all fics do have to bear that burden, I'm not sure how we could ever even have established relationship fic.

That said, I love ER, though I know that it is definitely the red-headed stepchild in fandom! For my ships, after I read two or three first-time fics, and certainly after I've written mine, I'm done with that phase of the relationship and am eager to see what comes next. But I'm certainly not writing ER fics in order to grab confirmed first-time fans, any more than I'm writing ship fics in order to grab confirmed non-shippers.

So yeah, first-time fics are great, and I know that they are by far the preference of most fic readers—which is probably why I defend ER fic when I can!

[ali-wildgoose.livejournal.com]

Oddly, I am now sitting here thinking about the problem I often have with "first time" fics, particularly longer, chaptered first time fics: that they are SO EXCLUSIVELY interested in showing me exactly how these people got together that I then have to plow through twenty chapters of NOTHING HAPPENING to reach that point. Like they have heard people's crit regarding this and think, wow, I better not rush it! But they completely miss the actual point, which is the careful and thoughtful construction of a relationship. Literally a case of confusing quantity with quality.

I also feel compelled to balance out all the first time fic love in the comments. We've talked about this in person, but for the benefit of anyone reading this: I tend to only write each pairing's "first time," the story of how they ended up together, once. After that, I'm just writing more fics in that universe and if someone wants the whole story they can go back and read the earlier installments. There are exceptions to this, like AUs for instance, but yeah. That's basically my policy. I see writing that first fic as setting the stage, in a way -- what I really want to do is enact further dramas UPON that stage once it's done and to my liking.

As for reading? I guess I'm "one per author" although certainly I have limited patience for even that. Pairings, especially minor pairings, tend to have one or two ways in which most people write them. Particularly when there's already been a Big Popular Fic that kind of sets the tone for the ship. So while I want to read good fic for pairings I like, I'll admit I get weary of seeing them plod through the same series of steps over and over and over again in different authorial voices.

For most of my ships, I feel like either the canon itself or the fandom have pretty much set down how those people hooked up, with some small variations according to preference. You can pretty safely assume that if you put in some sentence about a ferry in a Jet/Zuko fic or "exploring the temple" in a Haru/Teo fic, people will get what you're talking about, you know? Esp when it's a closed canon and everyone's had some time to digest.

So what I really want are post-canon fics that skip that whole song and dance and tell me something I don't already know.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Well, they don't see any reason why the couple should be apart once they know that they are interested in each other, so they event a lot of tiresome external reasons. And you know how I feel about that.

I agree about first times. I get that people love them, I just don't share that love for them to the exclusion of ER fic. And because there's less ER fic I want to champion it! In addition, I find ER fic more interesting to write, for the reasons you say. Once I've written the first time, I'm kind of done.

Please, my kingdom for something new, rather than the same damn hurt/comfort first time slash fic that has been basically rewritten since the dawn of time, or at least, the appearance of Beatles and/or Kirk/Spock slash.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Interesting question. I definitely don't think fic has to sell anybody on a particular ship. I tend to like first time fics a lot, but I couldn't even say that those are about selling the ship to me. It's usually, now I think about it, often more about the extra "wrongness" that sometimes comes into it in some of my pairings for their first time? I mean, that it adds this level of "Omg, what are we doing, we shouldn't but I want to!" I do like the moment where the canon relationship changes, but it's not all about OMG, FIRST TIME!!

But when it comes to established relationships I know I've heard people argue for H/D especially that you can't just have a fic where they're together and that's never made sense to me. Why can't you? I'm fine with fics that just plop me down for the first time with H/D in a specific relationship. I probably need the author to have some idea how they got together just because if they don't it might show in the writing, but there's a whole different treasure of stuff to be gotten in a fic about a relationship that doesn't necessarily depend on how they got together.

Thinking of Maya's DDG, for instance, that fic really does start out with Harry and Draco in an established relationship that's different from canon, and while it does go back and show the beats in that relationship the subject of the story is more about the relationship that's already established. It's...well, I guess I lump it in with "relationship" stories rather than first time because even thought it is a fic about how Harry and Draco get together it's far more about how they make their non-sexual relationship work than the two of them falling in love in a heated moment and having sex.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

But when it comes to established relationships I know I've heard people argue for H/D especially that you can't just have a fic where they're together and that's never made sense to me. Why can't you?

ITA! That fic is not doing that heavy lifting and it shouldn't have to! If you want first-time H/D fic there is so much of it, why demand that the ER fic has to include the first time as well? If you as a reader always need to be lead by the hand from canon to fic, then stick to the first time stories.

And with Maya's story, really, why can't those stories be written? I want to read those! ER gets labeled as curtain fic, but I think that's because so many writers lack imagination, or are so tied to the happily ever after that they don't want to envision later problems, but those problems don't have to be within the relationship itself—they can be problems that the couple have to face together, and watching that can bring its own kind of pleasure.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I have to revisit this again after Lost last night. I was having this conversation about it on TWOP. To sum up, Lost is a crazy show that jumps around in time--both in terms of how the story's told and in the story itself. Anyway, last night we saw this group and what was going on with them and these two characters made a pretty good team. The woman then says she's going to leave the island even though it's 1974 so her life in 2008 doesn't exist yet. The other characters makes a funny plea for her to stay and says "Just give me two weeks." She says "Okay, 2 weeks." Then it says "3 years later" and they're living together.

And I thought of this convo because I read this comment:
"But it's been ten minutes for us. If I'm going to enjoy a romance I want to SEE it, I want to enjoy all its stages, especially the falling in love part. I don't want to be dropped into the middle of a done deal, where the two are already old marrieds. This is what they did with Jack and Kate off island also, just dumped us into the middle of it. It's probably ok if someone isn't watching for the romances, and just wants them to be told in shorthand and kept out of the main story, but I enjoy romance well done. And it can't be well done in this kind of instant fashion, like a cliff notes version of a love story."

And I disagreed, saying:
I was pleased with the way they did it, which to me seemed very different from, for instance, hiding the fact that Kate has Aaron through the episode until she picks up the baby and says "Mommy's home" when she's never had a relationship with him before.

This reminded me of Monica/Chandler getting together on Friends--which I bought too. We saw them working together well, getting along, saw Juliet responding to Sawyer's little sideways smiles and him smiling more when he saw he was getting through to her. I thought that "Just give me two weeks" followed by "three years later" was all I needed to know. They don't have to be the greatest love affair of all time, but I totally believe they could build something together. In the Friends episode I remember there was just an exchange where Monica was depressed because somebody confused her for the mother of the groom at her brother's wedding. Chandler said, "I don't think you look like Ross' mother." Then later we saw them in bed. I had no problem only having that one line to work with. In fact, when they later went back and told you how they got together I thought it was awful and turned something sweet into something just kind of stupid and cheap, which was a waste.

In this case it was the two of them working well together, and Sawyer's sidelong smiles with Juliet responding to them and him seeing her respond to them were enough to totally make me believe they'd have a relationship. Maybe not OMG Tru love! but a relationship. His "just give me two weeks" after that conversation totally gave me the jist of their love story. The way they got together just wasn't the important part.

Anyway, I would love it if Sawyer/Juliet stayed together even though I've always believed Sawyer/Kate as being attracted in the past and always thought they made more sense than Sawyer/Jack. But then, I tend to be a sucker for the established friendship/partnership marriage pwns old flame who's the love of my life story."