I know we can't all just get along but can't we at least agree to pretend that it would be nice?

[jlh]

So remember the post I made about elitism on the left that was spurred by that not-well-designed poll about attitudes on atheism? Remember how my friends, good friends like tartpants and ash_grey_sky, disagreed with me and we had that civilized discourse? Yeah.

So I'm not really sure why it's not okay to disagree, occasionally, with someone I don't even know, who wrote some books I like, without making it seem like I'm a bad person, bad fan, bad fillintheblank. If I am understanding my audience theory correctly, I actually do have the right to like whatever characters I want in a fictional work, dislike whatever characters I want, and ship whatever characters I want. If the fictional work doesn't trend or end the way I would have liked, I have the right to either decide that I don't like it, or write a story where things go a different way (let's leave out copyright from this discussion). Therefore I'm truly baffled at the attitude that in order to be a good little fan I am required to genuflect in the author's general direction, or kneel and pray to them 5 times a day, or whatever. That in order to be a good little fan I have to feel about the book/tv show/movie/web comic exactly the way that the author might want me to feel. That's between me and the work, man. Just because your ship comes through in canon does not mean you speak with the tongues of angels, nor do you get a brand new car or to be best pals with the author. It isn't a puzzle; it isn't a contest; it's just a fucking preference. No more and no less!

And they wonder why the het community can't seem to get along. Sheesh.

Comments

[tropes.livejournal.com]

Dude.

Word.

An addendum, from my perspective: Just because your ship comes out on top doesn't mean that you have to like the way it came about. I'd love it if some of the ships that are happening in canon were written with more care, but they're not. But that's my feeling, and if I cared enough I'd write fic to rectify it. La.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

EXCELLENT point. I'm so sure there are H/G or R/Hr types who didn't like the way it happened in HP canon, never mind the way that Mulder/Scully finally happened, or the Josh/whatshername, or gosh any number of other things. Ugh, talk about feeling marginalized--you wouldn't even have the comfort of your fellow shippers!

[wednesdayschild.livejournal.com]

I ship R/H and I didn't like how it happened in canon (although I was pleased that it eventually did happen)--the same with Remus/Tonks, which made me want to cry.

[dejaspirit.livejournal.com]

Dude. So much YES to that.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I'm so irritated at the self-important wankfest surrounding the JKR statement. It's so very lame. Almost every person who posted about it got weirdo replies and the usual suspects, as usual, are smugly telling us that if we're skeptical then we don't deserve to stand in the reflection of her shining light.

Personally, I liked her statement but the points about the rounder characters not being portrayed in the best light is something that has been going around fandom for a long time. The "thin people aren't all anorexic" is just another variant of what she was saying, which is that we all define ourselves and others by appearances. PLENTY of those actresses are not naturally thin, and we all know who they are. (Like, Calista Flockhart? Always a stick. Jennifer Anniston? Not so much.)

[dejaspirit.livejournal.com]

I took it for what it was, really. Just her venting about something that was on her mind. *shrugs* I liked it too.

I don't get the JKR haters and I don't get the JKR worshippers. I mean, I like her books and she's all right in my book, but her romance sucks. I mean, jeez, she should have contracted Irina to ghost write the H/G part of book 6 , man, because it stunk to high heaven.

But whatever. I still had a good time reading the book, you know? And the romance is what fandom is for, really. I was actually sort of shocked that there was as much as it was. Which was a mistake, really...because I felt as if I needed to use some Febreeze to rid myself of the stink of those particular parts.

[zorb]

IMHO, the whole point of fandom is putting forth your own opinon, and fandom wouldn't exist without diversity of perspective.

Which is just a longer way of saying, "Word."

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I just don't understand it. I don't want to be insulting but the "don't let the door hit you on the way out" thing is really tiresome. Seriously this is why the slash community gets to be a community and the het shippers don't. We can't seem to support each other's ships because the canon shippers are too busy worrying about who is going to "win" in canon. I don't get it because like, who cares? Writers will write what they write and frankly, JKR writes such bad love scenes IMO that I don't want her to write my ship, thank you very fucking much.

And saying that shouldn't be blasphemy!

[zorb]

Seriously this is why the slash community gets to be a community and the het shippers don't.

In HP fandom, anyway. I heard about similar ship competition wank at the time of the QAF fandom's finale. Of course, I guess that depends on how you're defining slash, but that's neither here nor there today. ;-)

I have issues in any fandom where the principal creator is "worshipped," even in jest. It not only gives that person, who's just a creator like the rest of us who happened to get lucky, disturbing amounts of power over their disciples, but also creates that "If you're not with us, you're against us!" mentality. It's not something that happens universally in fandom, either; I started out in Trek, and in my experience far more people were likely to curse TPTB and pick on Roddenberry than they were to set up virtual shrines. And these were the most hardcore Trekkers, too. Love expressed through criticism!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's the kookiest thing I've ever seen. It's like...what would you do with a book whose author was dead? Why would you think the author should have anything to do with your experience?

It's like with the last thing she put up-to me it seems like a good subject for discussion. It seems completely silly to just leave it at YEAH, THAT WAS BRILLIANT! Because...isn't this kind of a huge issue? The whole issue of weight and the way women are perceived? I have thought a lot on this subject before she brought it up so naturally I'm going to talk about it. (And granted I've always had a long history of being a little uncomfortable at some of the scenes in canon where someone being fat seems to make them a buffoon, so it is kind of ironic to see that subject brought up.)

Anyway, speaking of your elitism post, I thought of you when I was watching Capote for just that subject. It was just so inherent in the subject of these east coast intellectuals creating "art" out of the "regular folk."

[jlh.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad that instead of, you know, people having a conversation about it, some make it into a contest of how much they lurve that JKR and will rush out to defend her. And as you said in a comment on your own post, it isn't that all the fat people are bad, but that being fat is a negative descriptor.

Re Capote that is such a HUGE part of that work, the way that everyone in that town reacts to him with such suspicion and instead of trying to be like them, he just says, "Yes indeed, I am an odd thing. Let's move on." So clear, that weird line between his needing the story and whatever might be best for those people, and everyone using everyone else. I love the morally unclear.

[seviet.livejournal.com]

I don't think the recent wankage has anything to do with ships. It's mostly people (like myself) baffled at the venom this author is being attacked with for her rant, which I thought that had some good points. It really feels like a 'damned if she does, damned if she does not' situation.

Anyone is, of course, free to hold their own opinions but when they are substantied with inaccurate claims -- well, something has to be said, no? No matter what the subject of the debate is.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to say that this wank had anything to do with ships--as usual I was looking at a specific issue but making a larger point. I'm sure some things that were said were inaccurate but I don't think merely pointing out the discrepancy that JKR uses "fat" as a negative descriptor is a venomous attack, nor is it inaccurate. [For a great argument and some wonderful replies on both sides, see sistermagpie's post on the subject.] I'm not sure we can keep taking all the attitudes we don't like in the books and attributing them to the limited POV. Maybe we can; I'm just not sure.

Anyway, my larger point is that you can disagree with JKR, even think that a plot point was not well done or odd or seemed like an outlier, and still be a fan of the books or the universe or whatever it is that you like. Sometimes, to me, when folks defend JKR it can get rather heated and hysterical, as if such disagreement should not be tolerated. You can be skeptical about the things she says and still want to read them. You shouldn't have to treat every word that comes out of the woman's mouth as scripture in order to be in the fandom.

[seviet.livejournal.com]

I agree that blind worshipping is as baffling as blind hatred. As for venom, I certainly didn't mean 'merely pointing' discrepancies, which falls under 'disagreement', but comments worded so strongly that made me wonder whether she had killed their puppies or anything (Sirius aside).

I have been skeptical of some stuff myself - I am not getting into the whole Maths issue ;) - and I happen to dislike some parts of the books. However, that doesn't prevent me from thinking *some* of those attacks are uncalled for.

[tartpants.livejournal.com]

What's this all about? I feel like I've missed something.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

JKR: It's lame to judge people on their weight and it's worse for girls.
Fan group 1: You said it, sister!
Fan group 2: No shit, sherlock
Fan group 3: But you call people fat in your books!
Fan group 1: But there are nice fat people like Neville and Molly and if you don't like what JKR says you can fuck off.
Fan group 3: JKR isn't so great! So there!
Fan group 2: ????? What just happened?

Note that these fan groups overlap.

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

Therefore I'm truly baffled at the attitude that in order to be a good little fan I am required to genuflect in the author's general direction, or kneel and pray to them 5 times a day, or whatever.

Nothing to add except a great icon :)

[darth-kittius.livejournal.com]

LOL - ok, my response to this was going to be "word." I see muffinbutt already beat me to the punch on that one.

Well, then, the more wordy response.... I totally agree. Well said.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why people limit discussions at all. Why tell other people what to think or assume there is only one right answer? Sheesh. Being able to see one or more possible solutions to a query is one of the delight of discourse.

I read very few reactons to JKR's post. And only one of them prompted me to reply because it seemed so narrow and black and white, and I think the issue is quite complex. Also JKR has evil characters who are both skinny and fat. Not all the bad characters are fat. Mrs. Weasley was originally fat. Voldemort is skeletally thin. It is sort of silly to draw hard and fast moral implications from bodytypes of characters, imo.

[sisterpandora.livejournal.com]

If I am understanding my audience theory correctly, I actually do have the right to like whatever characters I want in a fictional work, dislike whatever characters I want, and ship whatever characters I want.

I have no idea what's going on of course, but I LOVE YOU. You're so spot on and say it so well!

disclaimer: I have no idea what difference of opinion you are actually talking about.

[calloocallay.livejournal.com]

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060405.html reminded me of this post. :)

Re: disclaimer: I have no idea what difference of opinion you are actually talking about.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

That is AWESOME.

I'm beginning to wonder if the question "why" should ever be asked outside of an academic context. This is overstated, clearly, but the "why" seems to lead to a lot of trouble. Not that I, too, haven't tried to figure out the "why" for some behavior online or discounted the "why" as "because they are just crazy." Perhaps now I'm trying to atone for previous sins in my usual quest for moral perfection.

Re: disclaimer: I have no idea what difference of opinion you are actually talking about.

[emsariel.livejournal.com]

Wow, I am going to print that comic out. Did you read David Willis' earlier works? Also rocking.

Darn it, I wish I hadn't missed that earlier post about intellectual elitism. Is there a statute of limitations on discussions, or does a post to an old entry just become no better than an email to the author?

Re: disclaimer: I have no idea what difference of opinion you are actually talking about.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

There is no statute of limitations per se, though yeah, I'm probably the only one who would interact with your comment if you make it to me. Though if you comment on someone else's comment then they'll probably reply.

I say, have at it!