jlh: Chibi of me in an apron with a cocktail glass and shaker. (Clio Chibi)
[personal profile] jlh
I was thinking about this year in review, and I continue to be confused about the total lack of any kind of discussion about race among those of my flist. Do you just not care that there have been riots in Paris and Sydney this year, and would rather talk about gay marriage not passing in Texas than admit that all of these perfect countries I'm supposed to want to move to have their own problems, problems that I'd have to worry about given I'm not white? We say that straight people should care about gay rights, but are you saying that white people don't care about racism? I have such a political flist that the silence on this issue is deafening, and to be honest, I don't feel that I have the right to comment about what happens in other countries, not to mention that I don't think the only people ever talking about race should be me, Eb, and Dionne. So is it that you don't care about race, or that you've taken a solemn oath to never criticize any country other than the US?

Oh, and two things about all those posts about gay marriage in Texas:
  1. I'm not sure why anyone was surprised it didn't pass. I mean, come on.
  2. Call me parochial, but I thought the passage of the gay rights bill in Maine, after a seven year fight, was a more illustrative story, and one that here in the states got equal billing with the story in Texas. It means that yes, there is a light at the end of this tunnel; yes, people's minds are being changed; yes, it's worth it to stay in there fighting. Oh, wait, I forgot: we never talk about positive change on LJ, do we? We'd much rather get righteously indignant than celebrate a victory.


Speaking of which, is anyone else excited about what's going on in Bolivia?

Date: 2005-12-21 03:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adjudicated.livejournal.com
I dunno, I brought up the issue of race in several of my posts this year and those posts were summarily ignored -- unless they had to do with Blaise Zabini, who isn't a real person. And, frankly, sometimes silence on LJ makes me paranoid that I have inadvertently been offensive, and it makes me less likely to post about topics other than Harry Potter or memes. I am white and I care very much about racism in our country, but there is a timidness that comes with actually saying something about it and having basically no one reply. So, naturally my thoughts on the issue just become my own private musings.

I don't think that people realize how deep the racism runs in France, which is a very Four Hundred-ish country, where value is placed even on how old one's surname is, or how authentically French it is. So, of course anyone coming from, say, an African country or India or Pakistan is facing an uphill battle. It often bothers me to read certain people on my friendslist's disdain for the United States and their proportion of European supremacy, when France is a rather blatant example of how the grass ain't greener.

I'm not sure if I'm excited about Bolivia per se; I know there is excitement amongst the Bolivian people that Evo Morales is the first elected indigenous leader, and sure I think Bolivia should spread its wealth amongst its people more equally. But, I'm not a fan of socialism.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:09 pm (UTC)
phoenixsong: An orange bird with red, orange and yellow wings outstretched, in front of a red heart. (Default)
From: [personal profile] phoenixsong
First paragraph: AMEN. Thank you.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adjudicated.livejournal.com
I didn't know how else to say it -- I know it might come across as Wah, no one reads my LJ!!!! But, that's not what I mean and not my point at all. I've just noticed that when I post about race issues, I get little to no response.

Date: 2005-12-21 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
Well, I think that's true for anything thoughtful that isn't directly about fandom or a fandom controversy; that is, anything deep that isn't wanky. Which, you know, is annoying. On the one hand I don't know if I want the fickleness of the average LJ user to determine what I'm going to post about and on the other hand it can be frustrating that no one engages.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
Well, I'm more talking about the non-Americans, but I didn't want to get really specific about it. It may just be that people only talk about what they think is easy instead of what they think is difficult. I feel like I keep walking around with a big sign that says RACE AND CLASS because I'm not an upper middle class white person.

You know, there was a story about Evo Morales on NPR this morning and the way he was talking about nationalization—that the resources should belong to the nation but he wasn't interested in like, nationalizing the industries themselves or seizing property from the multinationals—got me really excited because it felt very Third Way. Also, I like it when people tell the US government to go fuck themselves. The only reason they are trying to control the coca farmers is because they can, or could; as long as there is demand someone will be there to fill it. It's called capitalism.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adjudicated.livejournal.com
I also think there are groups of people who talk about hot political topics with each other, and for some reason they don't go outside of that particular group of people on their f-list to discuss issues - it's a comfort thing, I think. Sometimes I wonder why no one ever replies to my posts on a given topic, but I see people on my f-list discussing the same topic somewhere else. And while I am not an expert on anything really, I do have thoughts and opinions and I enjoy discussion, so it's hard to sometimes feel like maybe people don't think I have the capability of discussing politics or social topics.

Yes, I heard that story on NPR several times this weekend, and I too thought it was kind of cool that Morales isn't interested in catering to the United States or the whims of the US govt. And am I remembering correctly that Morales himself was an advocate for the coca farmers/growers? I want to say there was a union of sorts.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
Yes, he's a coca grower and was head of some kind of coca farmer's union or something.

I think that it's true that of course you have people you feel comfortable discussing political issues with because even if you don't agree with them, you know where each other are coming from and can have a debate without a lot of craziness and flaming. So I think that's part of it. Sometimes I think you just have to get in there, for people to think of you when they make those kinds of posts.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:51 pm (UTC)
ceilidh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ceilidh
It often bothers me to read certain people on my friendslist's disdain for the United States and their proportion of European supremacy, when France is a rather blatant example of how the grass ain't greener.

Um yeah, word.

Date: 2005-12-21 10:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adjudicated.livejournal.com
Yeah, it's just that there is no perfect country. There just isn't. There are pros and cons to every country and the culture it has -- Utopia doesn't exist anywhere, IMO.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:07 pm (UTC)
phoenixsong: An orange bird with red, orange and yellow wings outstretched, in front of a red heart. (Default)
From: [personal profile] phoenixsong
Even after living in a neighborhood where I was in the minority for a year, I'd feel a bit weird talking about race. I'm aware of it, especially living in the DC area now after growing up in mostly white, suburban upstate NY -- in fact, I was constantly aware of race while living in Landover, MD. I'll participate in a discussion, informed by my experience and education on the subject. But I'd feel like a bit of a poseur bringing it up myself.

I mentioned it on LJ a few times during some stressful moments last year, but was always a bit ashamed of it -- of noticing most of my neighbors were black, with a few hispanics thrown in, and feeling like my neighbors must all be thinking "What the $&#% is this white chick doing here?"

And I suppose that's a kind of pretension in itself, although eye-opening at the same time: being that constantly aware that I didn't fit in.

Tell me, am I just hung up on trying to avoid making an issue of race because of where I grew up -- in a school district where we all knew there were a handful of non-white students in every grade, but no one ever actually mentioned it or explored it because were were all suburbanites? Religion was probably a bigger issue in my school district than race, from what I remember.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
I was adopted into a white family, and when I was in graduate school in Philadelphia my sister and her husband and kids came to visit and they were sort of taken aback and my sister said, well, now I can understand how you must have felt in Maine!

I think that race is always there in American life and has been from the beginning because the slave system quickly co-opted race to justify itself. Struggling with it means you're an American, not that other countries don't struggle with it, but we do, and fairly openly. Fight against that urge not to make a big deal about it! It is a big deal! It's only the fairly privileged who think that it isn't. (Of course, it also isn't the only thing that matters.)

Date: 2005-12-21 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-hollow-year.livejournal.com
Wait, I'm confused; should I make a big deal out of race, or shouldn't I?

Date: 2005-12-21 03:34 pm (UTC)
phoenixsong: An orange bird with red, orange and yellow wings outstretched, in front of a red heart. (Default)
From: [personal profile] phoenixsong
I think what Clio is saying, based on her response to me, is, don't go out of your way to avoid talking about race. That's something I'm getting a crash course in, after moving to the DC Metro area from Buffalo/Rochester, NY. In upstate NY, especially in the suburbs, race is usually ignored; down here, both individuals and the media are much more frank about it, which takes some getting used to.

Example: My car was broken into in July, down here in DC. I had to call the dealership I bought the car from in Buffalo for some information, and was so stressed out that I completely forgot the name of the person who sold me the car. Having somewhat acclimated to using race as a casual identifyer, and knowing the salesperson was probably the only black person there, I used that to try to help the person on the phone help me remember his name. Down here, it probably wouldn't have phased anyone; but the receptionist in Buffalo sounded all offended that I dared say it out loud.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
I certainly wouldn't mind if you did. I mean, it's THERE, staring at us. I guess just, if it comes up, why not talk about it? We certainly talk about other stuff.

Also to be honest the post is directed more at the non-Americans.

Date: 2005-12-21 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-hollow-year.livejournal.com
That's the thing - it *isn't* staring at me, so I don't feel qualified to comment even when it does surface. I have a very difficult time telling what race people are, and if you want to know the truth, I wouldn't know by looking at you that you're a different race than I am. (It's the same with Dionne; if I hadn't known before I met her that she was of mixed race, I wouldn't have been able to tell.) In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not even 100% positive I know what race you identify with; it just doesn't register with me, and I don't know if people are offended by that, or whatever, so I keep my mouth shut. I feel very lost talking about race, and I'm sure I'm not the only one with that problem; I tend to think that economic/class issues are more addressable anyway. :/

Still. I agree with your comments on non-Americans and their reluctance to talk about the race problems in their countries. It's such a highly charged issue, though, that one tends to get shouted down if one points out, say, the treatment of the indigenous people by white Australians. I think the reluctance to talk about racial relations comes from an idea that if Country A is not superior to Country B on Issue X, then one feels less able to criticize, and that just wouldn't be any fun at all.

Date: 2005-12-21 09:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
I think the reluctance to talk about racial relations comes from an idea that if Country A is not superior to Country B on Issue X, then one feels less able to criticize, and that just wouldn't be any fun at all.

The funny thing about that is, I think only educated Americans really feel that way, because the "fact" that Europe is so much better has been ingrained in us since the beginning. (Can you tell that I'm dubious about that?) I agree that economic/class issues are more addressable; I think your LJ actually has tons of awesome political content and I look forward to your posts. We need to talk about class a lot more, I reckon.

I actually identify biracial, to the annoyance of white and black people. My little "yay, like me" cheer is mostly for biracial people who similarly refuse to "pick a side." But I'm incapable of picking sides as a general rule anyway.

Date: 2005-12-22 12:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dejaspirit.livejournal.com
I have been known to be an emergency white girl in situations like my car breaking down in the backroards of Georgia. I can understand the confusion.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2005-12-21 03:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
Banned? Seriously? Nutty.

This is so interesting. Are you saying that you feel the non-Americans think of their LJ audience as being American, and therefore only post about things that they think Americans will care about? Because I don't think of LJ as being American per se (perhaps because of my own flist) and I almost rely on my non-American friends to post about the things that are going on around them instead of endlessly posting about the States. I mean, I'm training to be an American historian and even I don't think the States is the only interesting country. I'm totally fascinated by [livejournal.com profile] chinawolf's posts on both China and the German election.

The embarrassment, yeah, I'm sure is a factor, which may be why I'm so frustrated. I mean, I KNOW that the US is racist, but at least we try to talk about it and do something about it, sometimes. So it's frustrating to read posts about how much the US sucks and have that assumption that everyone else is totally perfect.

Date: 2005-12-22 08:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
the US sucks and have that assumption that everyone else is totally perfect

Bzzt! Strawman. I don't think any of those of us who primarily identify as European think that "Europe" (define plz!) is totally perfect. Are parts of Europe better racially assimilated than the US? Sure. Are parts of it less well so? Also sure. Overall, however? That's when the value judgments come into play.

Date: 2005-12-22 08:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
I want to note that except for a remark above about culture, I didn't use the word "Europe" in this post or any of my replies as I really wasn't just talking about Europe. So there's that. If you identify as European, then you can go ahead and define that.

I'm merely expressing my surprise that while plenty of people on my flist made note of the results of the referendum in Texas, none made note of the riots in Paris or Sydney, and I wondered why. I find it interesting that most of the folks who replied to this post are Americans. I don't just wonder whether it's easier to criticize the US than to criticize other countries, but also whether everyone would rather be indignant about sexuality than indignant about race. I see a lot of (definitely warranted) criticism of internal and external US policy, and little or no conversation about anything that any other country does, and it just gets a bit frustrating.

Also, please note that there is a great deal of variance in racial assimilation throughout the US, and also that assimilation isn't necessarily the marker of much, or the goal. There are other things to think about as well.

Date: 2005-12-22 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
I've sort of covered some of this below, but I'd certainly find it much easier as an American to comment on American issues than on Australian issues. "OMG ARROGANT YANKEES COMMENTING ON OUR SOVEREIGN ISSUES" sort of thing. Sucks to be the majority country.

The comment on racial assimilation drew mainly from the French example, where la ghettoisation has been blamed for a great deal of the problems.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:51 pm (UTC)
ceilidh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ceilidh
I think for me, the reason I don't discuss race very much on LJ is that it is such a topic for me in everyday life I'm exhausted of it and want to discuss something else when I get here.

I work at what has been basically labeled by the town as a 'poor black school', even though our school is a good bit more diverse these days than that implies. The problem at our school is more class than race, though those things are intertwined, and part of my day in, day out battle is making sure our kids have the same opportunities and privileges as the rich pampered (mostly) white kids across town. I hate to see these wonderful kids denied so many things just because they haven't got someone to drive them around to after school lessons, don't have $8 for a recorder, and our PTO isn't as affluent as it is at other schools.

My battle since I've got to this school is the fact that this school will be 50 years old next year but the tiny cafeteria/auditorium has never been upgraded and will only hold about 150 kids at a time (a problem when you have about 600 kids to feed). And now that the school board has finally appropriated $1.5 million for these renovations, they've decided that before that can happen they need to expand the elementary school in the affluent neighborhood (that was just built 3-4 years ago) because it's already overcrowded. (Too bad, says I - we've been waiting 50 years, they've been waiting 3...)

I'm constantly bitching about school vouchers in my journal, which is another thing that only benefits the affluent - but I only seem to end up pissing off the people who do send their kids to private school. *shrug* Schools taking these vouchers aren't required to accept the poor black kids; the vouchers aren't going to cover the entire cost and any school that wants to keep them out can just raise their tuition enough to keep out the 'undesirables'. What about transportation? Uniforms? All it's going to do is resegregate the schools (by class as much as race) and make the class divide even worse. The poor kids are going to be stuck in public schools with even less money than they had before, and the well-off kids will be even better off than they were before and have even less of a clue of how 'the other half' lives.

Date: 2005-12-21 04:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
I don't think I even have anything to add to that except, world of WORD, and you've put this so well, so succinctly and coherently covered the entire issue, that I for one wish you talked about it more though I can definitely understand why you don't.

Honestly? Too bad if people in private schools get pissy. That was their choice and that's fine, but they have to understand their responsibility to the culture to those that are left behind and are going to be a permanent underclass if we aren't careful. People get mad when you let them know the consequences of their actions, but that's life, you know? However, you're right, it's not your job.

Date: 2005-12-21 05:19 pm (UTC)
ceilidh: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ceilidh
Ugh, I could go on and on about educational inequities all day long, and about the fact that our state governor has always had his kids in private school (cause God forbid they go to school with those people) so what would he know about public schools anyway, besides what corporations who do charter schools for a living (and for profit) tell him?

If people want to send their kids to private school, fine, but don't expect the government to subsidize it. It's like - you pay taxes. You get police services like everyone else, but if you want a private security guard to look after you 24/7, you pay that for yourself. You don't ask the state to reimburse you or give you a tax credit for your private security guard. I still think private school is elitist, but it's a free country and if people want to segregate themselves... then they're hurting themselves.

Homeschooling is a whole nother kettle of fish. I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand I'm glad people are taking responsibility for their child's education, (and in some cases this is the best educational setting for some kids) but on the other hand I'm kind of insulted that people seem to think that 'just anyone' can teach beyond a certain level, that all they have to do is pick up a few workbooks or a prepackaged curriculum and they're all set. Then you get into these issues of people who homeschool because they don't like the 'values' in the public schools but they have no problem with their kid playing on a public school sports team or in a public school orchestra. *eyeroll*

Aaand then you get into the strange world of public school teachers who vote for certain officials because they are more worried about the gays marrying or the 'whores having abortions' (direct quote from a coworker) because their preachers have them scared of Armageddon, than they are about our school losing funding through NCLB, then they bitch that they can't get the materials and such that they need because the money isn't there. *sigh*

I'm glad my daughter goes to my school instead of the 'better off' school we're zoned for. She's learned a LOT in the half-year she's been there.

And I just sort of went off on a tangent, and didn't mean to. I think I need to talk about this more coherently later, because I have a lot of opinions about school that don't line up with either camp, really.

Date: 2005-12-21 06:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imaginarycircus.livejournal.com
I'm amazed at the situation in the school I am teaching at in Chinatown. I knew a NYC public school would be rough but it is a real eye opener. I don't think there are any white kids there at all. The children all seem to be asian, black, or latino. The ones I deal with are sweet and bright but they are low functioning and the resources provided for them are shameful. And I think the school is actually one of the better ones!

I teach two classes a week for free as part of a program through my graduate school. The kids are surprised that I come back every week because often volunteers do not.

I had a hard time getting them to work with me at first I think because I am white and I go to grad school and many of these kids don't think they will make it to college. They told me writing was college stuff and I felt like there was undertone there impying classicism or racism (i.e. you're white or you're priviledged so of course you are in grad school.) I got them to admit they were planning on going to high school and that they did need to pass exams with essay components to do that.

The kids themselves throw around racial slurs as jokes all the time. I think they are trying to figure out how to deal with these issues. I try not to make a big deal out of it unless one of them says something malicious about another student. If one of the black kids tells me he wants me to call him, "shadow" I just say I'll call him by his name and smile and move on. But if one of the other kids calls the black kid something in order to draw attention to his race I tell them that that is not cool. The same way I told one of them that calling Brittany Spears a lesbian was silly, and even if she was one, so what.

Some of the erroneous ideas that they have about the world are because they are 7th graders, but I think some of it stems from lack of exposure to rela news and other socio-economic groups. Just as you said.

It just recently dawned on me that they are always asking me for things and they may think I have money because I am white. Of course they are 7th graders and they just want stuff--which is what I originally thought. But now I wonder if it isn't more complex. We have had several conversations recently that surprised them. I told them that I couldn't afford to bring oreos every week and also that I live in the Bronx.

I don't really know.

Date: 2005-12-21 03:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wordplay.livejournal.com
OK, so I know what this post is about, but I'm going to sort of piggyback off of Julie's response to talk about race directly.

Which, you know, is something I almost never do. That's for a couple of reasons: (1) When white girls talk about race, it rarely ends well; and (2) I kinda believe that in a lot of ways, the race issues have been largely subsumed into the class issues, and I have so much irritation and ire dealing with class that I sort of don't get through that to get to what I am now feeling are the finer, more subtle points of race in the US. (I mean, this is why I really don't talk about this much, because, you know, I WOULD think it's all about class, wouldn't I?) I keep getting hung up on the whole religiosocioeconomic class stuff and I can't tunnel through.

You know, the thing is, I became really uncomfortable talking about race when I was in college, when I was basically told by some young, militant black folks that I just wasn't really allowed to have an opinion on the matter. I was young, and so were they, and they were arguing from the same place that the little militant feminist brigade argued from. And I GET that now, I do, and obviously I've reengaged with feminism on my own terms and in my own way. But it's just been easier to skirt around race and focus on class issues, because they're MINE and nobody can take that bit of authority from me, you know? And I can't be alone in this experience. And it's nobody's fault but mine, because I have to just get over it and stop being timid about taking back my own authority, and isn't THAT just 2005 in review for me? :)) *hugs*

Date: 2005-12-21 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
There is so much about being young and militant that just shuts down conversation and it's really too bad. I had a similar experience, with some folks who told me that any criticism of the actions of the Israeli state is anti-Semetic. At the time I couldn't fully understand the difference between the Jewish faith and the Jewish people (coming as I did from a Catholic background which encompasses several ethnicities) and that really didn't help at all.

In this country race and class are absolutely in lock step. Actually, race, class, gender and sexuality are in this big lump that is nearly impossible to pull apart, though a lot of people want to try to ignore that. Anyway, I think you should talk about class more, too, because no one talks enough about that, either.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's just that in these circles and at this time sexuality, and gender to a certain extent, are just easier to talk about than race and class, so race and class get ignored. I really don't want to think that it's because most of my flist is white and middle class so they think race and class either don't exist or are someone else's problem.

Date: 2005-12-21 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahoni.livejournal.com
You know, the thing is, I became really uncomfortable talking about race when I was in college, when I was basically told by some young, militant black folks that I just wasn't really allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

I had this experience in high school. I've encountered this also, more recently, on the issue of sexuality. Increasingly, the only topic I do actually feel comfortable bringing up is religion, because it's the topic I've never been shut down on. I'm fairly self-conscious, and I would rather not say anything than to risk offending people I don't want to offend.

However, I agree with Clio that I'd really like to hear those in other countries talk about their own race/religion/whatever issues. Particularly the French & the Aussies, per recent events.

Date: 2005-12-21 04:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] annearchy.livejournal.com
I don't go out of my way NOT to talk about race on my LJ. You and I haven't been on each other's Flists very long so I can't point to any specific times when I've talked about it. As you know, I'm a middle-aged white person, and quite middle class as well. But I grew up in New Orleans during the Civil Rights movement, and even as a child I was very strongly affected and upset by the "Whites Only" signs and "coloreds" signs on rest rooms and drinking fountains, as well as seeing people hurl garbage and epithets at little girls attempting to integrate a public school. I am old enough to remember reading (and feeling outraged) about Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner in Philadelphia, Mississippi, and I can tell you exactly where I was when I heard that Dr. King had been assassinated. I've also got a daughter who is 3/4ths Hispanic (though, amazingly, she looks a lot like me).

So...long story short...racial issues do matter to me. I suppose I should write more about them, but quite honestly I tend to update only once a day, right before bedtime, and a lot of times I discuss only what's on my mind at that very moment (mostly because I can't remember what happened earlier that day;) I have been shocked about what's been going on in France, among other places. Maybe I should comment on news items more often. I used to have a lot of political stuff on my LJ last year, back when I felt more hopeful than I do now. Maybe it's time to get back to doing that again.

Date: 2005-12-21 04:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] calloocallay.livejournal.com
Well, I'm not a fandom lady or anything, and this doesn't address why people on your friendslist don;'t bring up race enough, but I would like to say that on my friendspage, you are usually the first (and best informed) to talk about any political thing, be it class, race, party or whatever. I don't always agree with your opinions, but I always trust any source you trust, because you are one plugged-in lady. As evidenced by my pasting your entire post about the strike, and then my friend Mike ([livejournal.com profile] celebdu) doing the same thing, your words carry to a larger audience and are very respected. I consider my lj as mostly a social tool, rather than a political one, but that doesn't mean I don't *notice* that the people on my friends page who say, "The mta workers are greedy!" are upper class white girls who have never been without healthcare, have no dependents, have parents living nearby who still buy them food, and went to wealthy, elite schools in the northeast(all of the people on my friendspage who have accused the strikers of being greedy fit this category). I will not call them on it in my, or their ljs, because they are real-life friends and if I bring up this discussion with them at all, which I probably will, it will be in person.

Date: 2005-12-21 07:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ali-wildgoose.livejournal.com
I've noticed this as well, and been shocked by it (the general sentiment toward the MTA, that is.) While I agree that the timing of this strike was particularly harsh, that it's going to punish those least able to rebound far more than it will the deep pockets of the people they're actually frustrated with, that many unions have gone one without contracts for extended periods in order to keep their respective industries and such running smoothly....even will all of this, I feel the union's decision is completely understandable. All evidence suggests that the MTA has not been taking them seriously, nor treating them with the respect one should demonstrate to one's peers. The MTA have patronized and belittled the TWU throughout this entire process -- what else did they expect? If you refuse to take people seriously, they will do what they must to force you to.

Date: 2005-12-21 04:58 pm (UTC)
ext_22302: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ivyblossom.livejournal.com
Best song of 2005 (http://www.ourmedia.org/node/53964). :)

Date: 2005-12-21 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] didi75.livejournal.com
I second Julie's sentiments on the matter. I did, in fact, post about the race riots in Sydney. I also engaged in a few discussions in comments with some of the Aussies on my flist. Seeing that I'm a Lebanese-American and have loads of relatives in Australia, the events really touched me. Not very many people on my flist really wanted to talk about it, though.

I mentioned the events in France, as well, but got a big bowl of silence.

I'm thinking of starting a political journal so I can talk more about the issues that are important to me, including race, class, and international relations. I would probably feel more comfortable talking about these issues in a non-fandom venue. Not that my journal is all squee and recs, but you know.

Date: 2005-12-21 05:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] didi75.livejournal.com
Oh yeah. And about the gay marriage amendment in Texas, I wasn't even remotely surprised. It's sad actually, I had to read 275 political ideology papers from my undergrads this year, and around 90% of them were anti-gay marriage. I know that I'm at a very conservative college, and not all Texans feel that way, but I had no illusions that the majority did not.

Date: 2005-12-21 05:54 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
I think the only few quasi-political posts I've ever posted were in response to something that I felt was almost too big an elephant in the room not to mention, and even then I remained completely silent on some huge things---in my lj, that is. I had discussions about them elsewhere. I just feel completely incapable of speaking about politics, exactly.

However, I have read a lot of great stuff on lj about race, sometimes connected with class. Many of them, as Julie said, started with something fictional (heh--I just realized that I did a Blaise Zabini post too that got responses, though I wasn't focusing on his race so much), but were interesting because they moved into the real world. Often I think I just get into these things more naturally through fiction because I feel more in control of my information in the story than I do in real world, complicated situations, so I prefer to listen or react to what other people are saying that I understand, if that makes sense.

I think sometimes that one good reason that people speak a lot more gay marriage is it's far simpler. I know I often feel that way. Where as racial problems are often complicated with people not wanting to say too much, or people guarding their own prejudices--plus it seems to lurk at the bottom of just about everything. I was recently reading an article about healthcare in the US, which is a completely insane situation, and I had never thought of it in terms of race but there it was again. The article suggested that, among other things, universal health care tied into this idea that you'd be paying for "those people" who were irresponsible about their health.

Date: 2005-12-21 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andstillitmoves.livejournal.com
I don't know if sometimes I have the right to comment about what happens in my own country: Sydney and Melbourne are very different suburbias, and besides, I'm a white middle class private school boy. Apart from the gayness, what do I know about exclusion? So I suppose I consider myself unqualified to comment apart from making facile comments like "Discrimination and social injustice is bad, yo." Which makes me sound lame, so I don't say it.

I am cautiously optimistic about Bolivia. :) I am probably more excited about Pinochet's immunity getting summarily stripped from him by Chilean courts.

Date: 2005-12-22 04:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nmalfoy.livejournal.com
Race and class seem to be one and the same thing for a lot of people. When you talk about race, it seems that it always ends up being about class, but I think that's oversimplifying it. I've been told quite a few times that, as a white, middle class American, I'm not allowed to have an opinion on race, or class. I've been told that I'm the enemy and so I stay far, far away from the topic unless I know the person really well. I do have opinions, and what's going on in France and Sydney is upsetting, and I wish more people *would* mention it--go ahead, talk about the elephant in the living room--because it might open up the floor for some much-needed discussion. And me, I'll be watching the discussion but I won't be saying much. I'm positive that no one will mind if I don't say anything.

Date: 2005-12-22 08:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
I care deeply about racism; I belong to my workplace's ethnic minority affinity group; I mentor an ethnic minority student; I monitor my own and others' actions for bias and injustice. I don't, however, feel qualified to comment about issues in France and Australia without having the time to post follow-up replies, clarifications and so forth, because race is a real flashpoint and I don't want to be in a situation where I attempt to get a point across and manage to misconstrue myself.

Date: 2005-12-22 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlh.livejournal.com
Do you feel that race is more of a flashpoint than other contentious issues such as gender, sexuality or class, or even other government policies? Do you think that's why peole seem so silent on the issue?

I've heard a lot about feeling qualified to comment, and that's certainly something that has caused me to hesitate on many occasions, but I wonder if it isn't just a way that everyone keeps from talking about difficult issues.

Date: 2005-12-22 09:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
I do. When was the last time we had a Gender Riot, or a Fag Riot, or a Class Riot (purely class, not race)?

I also think that racism is less societally acceptable than sexism, heterosexism or classism. Sexism was the debate of the 50s and 60s. Racism was the debate of the 60s and 70s. Heterosexism was the debate of the 80s and 90s. And I know that none of these deserve a 'was', because they are all still huge problems.

I find that I have less to say about racism than I do about other minority issues -- partly because I'm an upper middle class privately educated white Western European male with a government job and don't feel qualified to comment, but partly also because a great part of my reaction to racism is OMG THAT'S FUCKING STUPID, and that's not especially erudite. I don't feel like I have any great insights to give, and to be honest, I don't have a mental check for 'okay, I posted about gay stuff, now I should post about how crap it is that ethnic minorities have a bum deal too'. Western heterosexism directly impacts me in a way that Western racism doesn't, in the same way that Chinese racism directly impacted me in a way that Chinese heterosexism (such as it was) didn't.

I'm trying to keep this above the level of "x minority has it harder than y minority", because that doesn't help. It also doesn't help that I'm so damn color-blind that I have to seriously think about which of my friends are non-white when I hear stuff about "n% of the population has no non-white friends", because I simply don't classify people by race. And we're back to the OMG RACISM IS FUCKING STUPID argument.

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