how about all the ladies!
Feb. 3rd, 2012 10:14 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jlhI was going to make a post the other day about the way that fandom pushes us to take sides in things that aren't even oppositional, and how weird and destructive I find that, all the Team this and Team that crap, the mine-is-better-than-yours. Then, it was about male characters, and the destruction of my (perhaps completely silly) idea that when favorites from two different fandoms come together in another film, that fandoms could come together in the spirit of fun and crossovers, rather than splitting apart even further. (If this is the trend, lord help us when Magic Mike comes out!)
I was reminded of this again today because there's a DW comm doing one of those "women fandom hates" memes and I really don't like that meme. I love plenty of "women fandom hates" like Sara on White Collar or Britta on Community or Uhura in the reboot. And yes, shipping exacerbates these problems, because some shippers get a little uncool in the defense of their ship and the dismissal of other ships, whether it's het shippers battling over canon or slashers saying "ew girly bits."
But it seems to me that all the "women fandom hates" meme really does is set up a new way to feel smug and superior, make a new list of women that you, as a feminist in fandom, should like, and if you don't you might want to check yourself. Which is silly--you're no more or less a feminist based on who your favorite female character is. Like so many other things that happen in social justice on the internet--not just fandom, mind you, but the internet in general--this leads us to all point fingers at each other, demanding greater and greater purity and orthodoxy, instead of pointing fingers at the canon creators for giving us these messy and problematic characters in the first place.
Can't we celebrate all the variety of female characters that we do have, while hoping for a much greater diversity in the future? Can't we make a space not just for the female characters that get a lot of attention AND the ones that are "hated" but ALSO the ones that are "ignored"? Can't we agree that it doesn't really matter if your favorite female sitcom character is Liz Lemon or Leslie Knope or Britta Perry or even Reagan Brinkley or Jess Day, no matter what various feminist television critics might say?
I know to a certain extent what we wanted to do was create an atmosphere where critique of female characters would be free of misogyny, but I worry that what we're actually doing is creating a space where it's okay to critique some characters and not okay to critique (or simply not care for) others. Often there's a disclaimer, stated after the fact: "I'm not talking about just not liking them, but saying lousy things about them" but I think we all can see how quickly that distinction gets lost. Not to mention, there's saying something about general fandom trends, and then applying that trend to individual people, another unfortunate thing that happens quite frequently (and is a big problem with doing cultural critique of the culture you are in during the moment the culture is being reacted to, and attaching a moral value to those reactions).
I watch White Collar and I love Sara, who fandom hates, and I love El, who fandom loves, and I love Diana, who fandom pretty much ignores. Ditto Annie, Britta and Shirley from Community. I watched ATLA and I loved Suki and Toph, had very little time for Azula, and thought Mai and Katara were fine but not my favorites. I never much liked Jackie on Veronica Mars, but I loved Mac and Veronica. These things should all be okay! Isn't the point of wanting lots of different female characters that there will be someone that appeals to anyone, not that we will pit them against each other to find the most perfect one?
I was reminded of this again today because there's a DW comm doing one of those "women fandom hates" memes and I really don't like that meme. I love plenty of "women fandom hates" like Sara on White Collar or Britta on Community or Uhura in the reboot. And yes, shipping exacerbates these problems, because some shippers get a little uncool in the defense of their ship and the dismissal of other ships, whether it's het shippers battling over canon or slashers saying "ew girly bits."
But it seems to me that all the "women fandom hates" meme really does is set up a new way to feel smug and superior, make a new list of women that you, as a feminist in fandom, should like, and if you don't you might want to check yourself. Which is silly--you're no more or less a feminist based on who your favorite female character is. Like so many other things that happen in social justice on the internet--not just fandom, mind you, but the internet in general--this leads us to all point fingers at each other, demanding greater and greater purity and orthodoxy, instead of pointing fingers at the canon creators for giving us these messy and problematic characters in the first place.
Can't we celebrate all the variety of female characters that we do have, while hoping for a much greater diversity in the future? Can't we make a space not just for the female characters that get a lot of attention AND the ones that are "hated" but ALSO the ones that are "ignored"? Can't we agree that it doesn't really matter if your favorite female sitcom character is Liz Lemon or Leslie Knope or Britta Perry or even Reagan Brinkley or Jess Day, no matter what various feminist television critics might say?
I know to a certain extent what we wanted to do was create an atmosphere where critique of female characters would be free of misogyny, but I worry that what we're actually doing is creating a space where it's okay to critique some characters and not okay to critique (or simply not care for) others. Often there's a disclaimer, stated after the fact: "I'm not talking about just not liking them, but saying lousy things about them" but I think we all can see how quickly that distinction gets lost. Not to mention, there's saying something about general fandom trends, and then applying that trend to individual people, another unfortunate thing that happens quite frequently (and is a big problem with doing cultural critique of the culture you are in during the moment the culture is being reacted to, and attaching a moral value to those reactions).
I watch White Collar and I love Sara, who fandom hates, and I love El, who fandom loves, and I love Diana, who fandom pretty much ignores. Ditto Annie, Britta and Shirley from Community. I watched ATLA and I loved Suki and Toph, had very little time for Azula, and thought Mai and Katara were fine but not my favorites. I never much liked Jackie on Veronica Mars, but I loved Mac and Veronica. These things should all be okay! Isn't the point of wanting lots of different female characters that there will be someone that appeals to anyone, not that we will pit them against each other to find the most perfect one?
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Date: 2012-02-03 08:33 pm (UTC)seriously? LET'S CELEBRATE HATING WOMEN? oh my god. what the fuck, i hope that at the very least, the people on the comm were like UM, EXCUSE ME, HOW BOUT WE *DON'T*?
Word to all of this post. my single biggest pet peeve with the inception fandom is that there seems to be a faction of people that seems to think that if you're writing top!CharacterX then you're oppressing all the people that like bottom!CharacterX, so that if you actually write bottom!CharacterX for any reason it means that THEY WIN, which makes all of us who like BOTH top/bottom!CharacterX but who generally *prefer* top!CharacterX feel like we should just never write bottom!CharacterX, because we don't want to indulge this stupid petty idea that we're caving in to some kind of Other Side in some kind of fandom competition.
Really, the idea that people ONLY LIKE ONE THING ALL THE TIME is stupid and ridiculous, and I hate that even discussing it within the context of the fandom means I'm treating it like it's a REAL LEGITIMATE VIEWPOINT, when, seriously, people really can like whatever they like, without oppressing or keeping other people from liking whatever it is they like.
Oh, and the reverse! I don't like or want anything to do with Chris Pine, which doesn't mean at all that by talking about disliking him, I'm somehow keeping other people from liking him! This used to happen to me all the time in anime fandom, btw. I'd talk about how much I disliked Naruto and would instantly be told that I was making other people feel like they couldn't/shouldn't like it. Um. NO? NEVER? NEVER. In case any Naruto fans are reading this: my inability to get more than 30 issues and 30 eps into your endless canon should not impede your ability to enjoy it to the fullest. People can like whatever they like! HOW IS THIS NOT OBVIOUS. brb sobbing in a corner :))
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Date: 2012-02-03 08:52 pm (UTC)I think ... you know, honestly, as a person who does not tend to say things either in all caps or in the spirit of all caps? I think that having someone who, let's face it, is influential, and also says things in a strong manner, saying that you like this and don't like that can make other people feel rather steamrolled, especially because there's a sense that there will be a certain number of people who will rubber stamp whatever you're saying and be all "Yes!" about it, so then it becomes a whole thing. I mean, you'll note that there is a fairly popular feminist blogger who often talks about television who I refer to but not by name in this post, because (a) they're really popular and (b) the last time I said that I disagreed with them my post got picked up by feministing and she called me out on her tumblr in a strange and personal way. So this phenomenon isn't limited to fandom.
But writ much, much larger, I think that of course people should be able to like who they like, only who I like ends up getting tied up in a lot of other stuff. So I can say, you know, I have friends who are moody and socially awkward, so I actually kind of like that in Chris Pine, is hard to separate from "Clio defends doucheyness in men, thinks it is okay." And you know as well as I do that the internet, and fandom, is really not great at nuance. It can't be, "well, I like this complicated thing for complicated reasons," but only, "This is the BEST THING EVER" or "This is A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE."
In liking what I like I have to accept that I'm liking something that someone is going to tell me is bad and wrong and terrible, and that's just not a battle I need to fight every day on my twitter or my tumblr or whatever. I think that's what I mean about that. I get tired.
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Date: 2012-02-06 08:03 am (UTC)(Also apparently SGA fandom sometimes hates the ladies but I LOVE EVERYBODY and this is what I like about closed canons, no arguing and just reading ALL THE PORN. <3)
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Date: 2012-02-07 10:04 pm (UTC)It's not so much that people don't argue in closed canons, but that everyone has gone to their respective corners in exhaustion. Like, Due South is a very friendly wank-free fandom because they had the mother of all wanks some years back. SGA was a giant mess, and for the people who ended up on the wrong side of that mess (ie, people who were not McSheppers) there seems to still be a lot of sad feeling and sometimes renewed resentment (like recently when someone was like, Here is a history of SGA fandom! and it was really just a history of McShep). Oh, mediaslashers and your inability to understand that your ship isn't all of fandom (cf, Snarry; K/S to a certain extent). It's why I can never sit happily in those spaces, and why when H50 started to become that I split. Fingers crossed for Clint/Coulson but all the bnfs are writing Steve/Tony anyway.
(Which I really like! Frequently the dominant mediaslash ships do create good fic; I read some fun Merlin fic the other day. It's when the people within that bubble start a lot of smug patting themselves on the back and saying that their pairing always has all the good fic and all the other ships are pointless that I get leery.)
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Date: 2012-02-13 05:13 pm (UTC)*makes note*
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Date: 2012-02-13 05:19 pm (UTC)What I actually said was that I don't like the "women that fandom hates" meme because it sets up a competition between liking one woman in a canon and liking another, and often ignores everyone else. According to that meme, fans of Britta, more awesome than fans of Annie, and oh, fans of Shirley exist?
I just feel like we can have women that we love without constantly pitting them against one another. That's what I'm saying in this post.
I'm unaware of whatever else Halfamoon is doing, but I'm assuming it's a lot more than just the "women fandom hates" meme.
But! if you think that the only way I can show, well, whatever you think I should be showing in fandom is to love the women that "fandom" hates then, well, I guess we disagree. I like Britta plenty, but I don't think liking Britta makes me a better fan.
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Date: 2012-02-13 05:30 pm (UTC)No, it really doesn't. "Liking women fandom hates" is a *reaction* to all the hatred of female characters; praising, say, Mai, is not an insult against Katara and her fans unless someone feels compelled to phrase it that way (and needless to say, I think they would be wrong to do so). What it is is a disagreement with all the people who hated Mai.
I brought up Halfamoon because they are a celebration of fannish women in general (including those who are ignored) and every year have a post about praising the women fandom hates, exactly the sort of thing you've inveighed against.
Being a fan of any particular female character doesn't make one a better fan, but what's wrong with wanting to commiserate with other fans of such a character over having seen her bashed? And for example, I don't think I'm a better fan because I like Uhura, but instead think I am as a valid a fan as anyone else, despite those who accuse her fans of liking her because they claim she's our Mary Sue. And I do look askance at fans who call her 'stuck up' and complain that she took McCoy's screentime, because those people are referencing real-world complaints against Black women for being 'uppity' and saying that the future shouldn't feature Black women. Your post tells me not to point these patterns out, not to publicly debate these statements, and with that I disagree.
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Date: 2012-02-13 05:51 pm (UTC)Can't we celebrate all the variety of female characters that we do have, while hoping for a much greater diversity in the future? Can't we make a space not just for the female characters that get a lot of attention AND the ones that are "hated" but ALSO the ones that are "ignored"? Can't we agree that it doesn't really matter if your favorite female sitcom character is Liz Lemon or Leslie Knope or Britta Perry or even Reagan Brinkley or Jess Day, no matter what various feminist television critics might say?
I would suggest that you go into the threads in that meme, because what I saw was a lot of smug self-congratulation and a surprising amount of slasher-bashing. Also there seems to be a real canon of women fandom hates, which seems to just set up the women that I'm supposed to like. I'm having difficulty getting around the idea of "I love the women that fandom hates" not being a little smug. Saying "I love Mai and I'm sad that people hate her" is a different thing.
And I wonder why there are no memes for the women that fandom forgets? Why we're only interested in furthering this particular battle? I'm not saying don't say "hey, that's not a cool thing to say." I'm saying that making this a whole thing where we have entire lists of women fandom hates, and we run around checking each other -- "makes note," really, am I going on some kind of blacklist here? -- is not making anything better. Deciding that we all should be in armed camps is not making things better.
I've never bashed a character on those kinds of grounds, but I don't feel welcomed in that "women fandom hates" meme because I don't love the right characters. THAT is what I find the problem to be. If you like Mai or Britta, you're in. If you like Katara or Annie, you're out. If you like Suki or Shirley, you just might not exist.
And this wasn't just about that--this was also about a recent column by a certain very popular feminist blogger who pitted Leslie Knope against Liz Lemon against Britta Perry, as if we can only have one female character on all of NBC Thursday night that is the "best." We keep calling for a diversity of female characters and then immediately have them compete with each other, against the backdrop of the whole competing with each other as fans to be the best feminist and to me it's a mess that I'm a little tired of.
So that's what I was trying to say and if that didn't come across then I apologize. But I didn't say halfamoon in general should not exist, anywhere in that original post, nor that people shouldn't speak out about the hate, just that these lists of women fandom hates is not making anything better.