Forty years ago, I would have been illegal in several states

[jlh]

(Just a reminder that this icon is a chibi of me, drawn by bhanesidhe.)

Last week there was an excellent series on National Public Radio about the fortieth anniversary of the Loving decision. For those of you that haven't heard of it, in 1967 the Supreme Court ruled that a state (in this case, Virginia) could not nullify a marriage on the basis of race.

The Lovings had got married in DC in 1958, where they could be legally married, and then went back to their Virginia home town. In the middle of the night, the cops woke them up, arrested them, and charged them with violating Virginia law. Their sentence was suspended on the condition that they leave the state and not return for 25 years, so they moved back to DC. Missing their family, they decided to sue in 1963. In 1967 the Supreme Court overturns the conviction in a unanimous decision based on the Fourteenth Amendment.

The other thing that happened in 1967 was "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." As a kid I used to watch this movie, in which a white girl presents her black fiancee to her liberal parents, and pretend that the couple were my own birth parents. (The timing is right; I was born in 1969, and I'm biracial.) The Hays Code, which delineated morality in film from the mid-thirties until the implementation of the MPAA ratings system in the 1960s, specifically prevented interracial romance that did not have an unhappy ending so as to discourage miscegenation. So "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" was the first film with an interracial couple who got their happy ending.

In their story on the decision NPR talked to an interracial couple living in the Loving's Virginia hometown now, and they talked about the verbal and physical violence that they have to deal with on a daily basis. In 1998 the law against interracial marriage in South Carolina, unenforceable since 1967 but still on the books, was struck down even though a poll found that 22% were against the removal of the law. It took Alabama until 2000 to get rid of their law. Heck, I'm in New York City and my own racial ambiguity makes people nervous all the time. So let's hear it for the Lovings and their bravery, and the bravery of all the interracial couples around us, because it still is a brave act, and remember that even certain kinds of heterosexual love are under attack from many in this country.

In fandom we have so much difficulty talking about race, perhaps because fandom is generally white, whiter even than the American and British cultures at large, and white guilt gets in the way. I don't know; I'm not white. I only know that when I talk about race, I don't get many comments, or the sense that many of you are listening. Given our ability to rally around issues of sexual orientation, I find that to be both sad and frustrating. If I felt that my lone voice in the wilderness was really making a difference—if I thought that even one person would link to this, or stop and think about how far we as a culture have and have not come around issues of miscegenation, which is so much at the very heart of what racism means—I'd be happy to make more race posts. I'd like to say that this isn't begging for comments, but to be honest, it is. On the one hand, it's upsetting to feel only five people care about these matters, and on the other hand, it's upsetting to post about them and confirm that only five people care.

Comments

[tartpants.livejournal.com]

white guilt gets in the way

That, yes, and also there's a whole "I shouldn't comment because I haven't been there/don't want to presume/have no authority." Colleagues of mine who want to teach ethnic literature at the University level are now claiming ethnicity as a way to talk about these things freely - and also to get jobs. There's a lot of Native American relatives being rediscovered, some authentic, others perhaps constructed.

One woman, a Israeli-born American, referred to herself as a woman of color during a presentation; everyone raised there eyebrows and later, I heard them whispering, "how does she have the right?"

So, academically speaking (and real-world speaking, I'm sure), it's become a bit of a hot button issue. Something people either pussyfoot around or become so passionate about that it seems to embarrass others into silence. All of that is unfortunate, though, because all it really means is that nothing ever really gets discussed.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Yuck, yuck, yuck. In American History, anyway, it's been slightly less of an issue because the study of race predated the entry of ethnic folks into the academy because you just can't get around slavery. Even if you want them to be happy slaves you still have to talk about them. But I did read a roundtable recently about the state of history after the linguistic turn and one of the people was like, "but if we do away with African American history as a discipline then how will the black scholars get jobs?" and I was like, Christ Jesus, lady! I mean, you didn't have to be doing Women's history to get a job! I mean, I'm definitely aware of how being a woman of color positions me differently, and I try to work with and against it. I don't actually do race history all that often, but I'm more of an integrationist, myself, even if it is too early for the academy to be doing so. And I think we have to break through the idea that you have to have a born-in authority to talk about things, rather than just being sensitive and stuff, as if you make ethnic lit something only ethnic people can talk about, then it will become something only ethnic people will care about. It's a puzzlement, and just as essentialist as anything else, really.

I'm really trying to work on that wall, that white guilt wall, because it's a badun. Like, I don't want to become the one stop for everyone's racial education, but I do want to encourage the conversation in a safe way. And you know me, I'm much more likely to be like, "gee, blah blah" than anything directly confrontational.

Thank you SO MUCH for commenting, lovely!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

One of the things I've always found interesting about fandom is that it tends to be sort of blind to things like race, gender, disability, sexual orientation, and yet at the same time very white, female, straight, and non-disabled. Because we can't see each other in this medium, we tend to interact with each other as faceless entities, but I wonder if people really do that, or if the default is (for most people in fandom) unconsciously that of straight white female?

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

This is a very interesting comment. I tend to think of people according the their lj icons and as disembodied ideas. I get a sense of their online persona. When pressed to consider the actual body sitting out there somewhere I do tend to think everyone is female by default. I try not to assume race, but probably do unconsciously think everyone is white unless I am told otherwise. I don't know. I think I was more startled to see actual normal people when I first started meeting online people in RL, if that makes any sense at all.

[lessthangreat.livejournal.com]

I second tartpants and emmegrant01's comments. I also just want you to know that I always thoroughly read your posts on race/racism. I just haven't commented yet because I never really know what to say, and I'd like to leave a half-intelligent comment. :-/ Mostly, just know that I support you, darling, and that I do care, even if I don't always comment.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Aww, thank you sweetie! I do not require intelligence, actually; just sincerity. I try to make this a really safe space where people can say whatever if they aren't just being provocative or obnoxious. And even when I disagree I always try to work out why I disagree, how I disagree, and why the person who disagrees with me feels the way that they do. And I think that you know, the experience of white folks in this big multicultural country is just as valid, since we all have to figure out how to live together.

[wednesdayschild.livejournal.com]

Heck, I'm in New York City and my own racial ambiguity makes people nervous all the time.

Can you explain this to me further? I have never encountered the idea of people being made nervous by racial ambiguity, or really thought of it as an issue at all (being, as I am, very obviously white it's not something that occured to me).

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

I have seen people get weirded out when they cannot place someone else's racial identity. (This is setting aside the idea that some people are upset by people of mixed race on principle. I don't have much to say about those people except that they make me furious.)

My best friend growing up is half Japanese and half Italian. She gets stopped by people all the time who say things like, "What are you?" People cannot place her racially and sometimes they get wigged out by it. She is also very pretty and that seems to make guys kind of stupid.

[conob.livejournal.com]

I hear you.

Having two generations of emigrants nearby has imprinted me more than race has--ethnicity more than color, anyway. (My grandmother left Russia, my father left a European country split in two, my mother left an Asian country split in two.) It still isn't useful to look for "people like me" in stories, since they're usually set in the distant future and/or deemed situationally contrived.

In Los Angeles during the teens and twenties (20th century), anti-miscegenation laws prevented marriage and limited social contact between white women and yellow men (mostly Chinese and Filipino, then). I don't know when those were repealed, but George Takei's role on Star Trek was just as groundbreaking as Nichelle Nichols's....

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I admit, at this point someone who "looks like me" in a film or a book is usually someone who's a little curvy. I guess I've kinda given up on the race thing, sad to say.

I would guess that they were repealed in the 1960s, when a lot of the laws were repealed as part of the Great Society, and the immigration law was finally changed. As you say, California was hugely anti-Asian for long parts of its history and you still don't see nearly as many Asians on screen as you do even blacks or hispanics. It's funny, last night I was watching I'm the One That I Want, Margaret Cho's first stand up DVD where she talks about everything that went on around her failed sitcom All-American Girl and she spoke a lot about being a so-called role model and whether the Asian community really accepted her as such. George Takei coming out was also huge as it's like, yes, there are also gay people of color! Imagine!

The teaching of western history (I'm a history grad student) was really changed in the late 80s by work from many scholars to point out that the west wasn't just "cowboys and injuns" but escaped and later freed slaves, Mexicans, Chinese and Japanese immigrants, plus the white settlers coming west and of course the Native Americans who were already there, and the whites used their experience of slavery and Jim Crow in defining blacks into a very narrow citizenship (can't vote easily, can't testify in trials, can't sue, can't have certain jobs) to control the non-whites they found in the west. Certainly there were plenty in California who were happy to take advantage of the war against Japan to ruin the very successful Japanese farmers who'd been in the valley for some generations. It's a mess, and a story that isn't told often enough, that the racial history of this country is not nearly just black and white.

May I ask the landmine question, how do you usually identify? I've been checking the "other" box for forever, and if someone asks I'll say "biracial", and I feel more affinity for people who are biracial even if it isn't black/white than with the black community, for some reason. And it is a growing racial identity, nowadays. You can even check it on the census.

Thank you so much for your comment!

[misscake]

Like others have said, I think part of the reason why more people don't comment is because, if you aren't a person of color, you feel somewhat unqualified or intimidated. And yet, many straight women have strong and very vocal opinions about homosexuality that we don't feel afraid to share; why is that?

But I do have an observation to share. I just returned from 8 days at Disney World and this was perhaps the first time I really took notice of how many more racial groups I saw represented. And I don't mean in the guests, but in the staff. For so long, Disney was a bastion of white males and minorities were relegated to housekeeping and maintenance. But I was really pleased this time to see more minorities and people with disabilities in the park and hotel management and recreation staff and in their advertising as well. Now, I have a sneaking suspicion that their upper management may well still be full of good ole white boys, but the every day faces they are showing to their public isn't anymore. I can't help but think that if a company as large and influential as Disney can recognize strength in diversity then there is hope on the horizon.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I know, and I hate that trend. Like, I understand where it comes from, and I understand why people of color say, "you don't know." But I think, it doesn't mean, "you don't know about race" but more, "you can't speak for my experience, only your own." And I, for one, do want to hear other people's experiences. It's the conversation that needs to happen, the talking AND the listening.

That's so encouraging, your story about Disneyworld! You know, I find that many corporations are pro-diversity; they often file friend of the court briefs on behalf of affirmative action because they want to be able to have lots of qualified candidates of color to hire. But they have to be extraodinarily pro-active in order to make it happen. It's too bad, how consistently education is the bad link in the chain in the US.

Thank you so much for your comment!

[dramawench.livejournal.com]

I think this is an interesting and important topic and I applaud you for wanting to address and discuss it. And i think part of the problem with getting people to respond to posts like these is race - you have a point when you say that fandom is predominantly white. I know that as a white person, there are times when I'm not sure how my opinion is going to be taken.

I'd love to see more posts on these subjects because you have an interesting and unique point of view. Bring it on.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Well, I'll say that I want this space to be really safe and welcoming of anything sincerely meant. So please, feel free to pop in with whatever your experiences have been!

And thank you so much! I really appreciate that.

[longtimegone]

Yay for accessing LJ at work!

The Hays Code, which delineated morality in film from the mid-thirties until the implementation of the MPAA ratings system in the 1960s, specifically prevented interracial romance that did not have an unhappy ending so as to discourage miscegenation.

Wow, I was not aware of that! How...yucky of them.

It took Alabama until 2000 to get rid of their law.

Yeah, I remember that vividly, as it was the first election/vote I was able to vote in. I was shocked that the law was still on the books, and that it was actually touch and go for a bit that it would pass. O_O

So let's hear it for the Lovings and their bravery, and the bravery of all the interracial couples around us, because it still is a brave act, and remember that even certain kinds of heterosexual love are under attack from many in this country.

They've definitely got my support/appreciation/kudos. Het, gay, bi, black, white, Asian, Native American, shit, it's hard enough to find love and happiness in this life, so I don't begrudge anyone for carving out their own niche. More power to them. More power to all of us!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

How great that you got to vote on something so important, even if it was somewhat late, though! So exciting to be a real part of a real change.

I didn't know that about the Hays Code, either, until I heard the NPR story last week, and I've read lots of things about the Code, too. So yeah, hence the sad ending of, oh, Imitation of Life and Showboat and etc, etc, etc.

Dude, more power indeed! And thank you for always commenting when I talk about race. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

[chinawolf.livejournal.com]

I always read your posts about this subject, but to be honest, I really don't feel qualified to comment most times. Being white in Germany is very different to being white in the States. Cologne has a significant minority of around 12% Turkish / German-Turkish people, and it is not an extremely white town when it comes to people of other origin, either. But the difference to say, London or Paris with its huge communities of (former) immigrants is palpable - and the only U.S. towns I ever lived in were Toledo OH, where all black people I knew were private school buddies of mine, and Salt Lake City, where it was a HUGE event to have seen a non-white person on the street (happened, like, thrice in four months). But back to my argument - because I know how much of an issue this still is in the U.S., I think I have nothing to say on the issue.

I grew up in a middle class bubble where until way into my twenties, I didn't realise - because I never ever saw it happen - that some people were treated differently even in Cologne due to their race/ethnic background. I had German, Turkish, African, Polish, Croatian, Russian, Spanish, Italian, and South-Korean classmates in my class of 28 students in years 5-10 in high school, and we were all the same, always, treated each other the same and got treated the same by teachers. We were very aware that elsewhere in Germany, asylum seekers were killed by neo-nazis - we talked about that in class a LOT (post-Hitler Germany has an extensive curriculum on hate and what it can lead to) - but the point is that growing up, treating everyone and being treated the same as everyone was the norm for me. I was a little pissed off to discover that this wasn't the same in the U.S., that despite the possibility of being friends, when it came to events such as football games, the whites stayed with the whites, the blacks with the blacks. I was quite flabberghasted, actually. Class council only had a handful of blacks, too, when I'd say a good 25% of the student body was black. I couldn't believe it, and I still don't understand why, after SO many years - even if it's only as few as 30, that's a whole generation! - there isn't a genuine mix of all "races" in about the same percentages as the areas the people live in. It just puzzles me, I *cannot* understand why. I mean, I get that all ethnic groups also shouldn't lose their identities, but I *know* it is possible to be true to your Italian roots and still be German, as well, the same goes for the Turkish people, *even* those girls who are very traditionally raised and only wear long skirts and always have their headscarf on. Still, they are in mixed friends groups. I guess that was the long explanation on why I hardly ever comment.

I am, however, always very interested when you post about race issues because I haven't given up hope that one day, I might understand why the Americans just can't seem to get a move on with their integration process, even though they've been at it SOOOOOO much longer than the Germans in particular and the Europeans in general have.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

It's funny that you say that, because the first time I travelled in Europe, in the summer of 1992, I was in Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Berlin, Amsterdam and Paris with my friend P, who is Hispanic and as brown as I am (his people are from Ecuador). And the only place that I felt brown, as opposed to just American, was … Berlin. I was really uncomfortable and felt very stared at the entire week, and in fact we left a day early because it was just so weird. I remember getting to Amsterdam and seeing all those POC's and just breathing a sigh of relief. And that fall, when there was that firebombing of the Turkish apartment complex I felt like, yeah, color me unsurprised.

I think it really depends. If you're in a middle class or upper middle class area of a fairly racially mixed city then yeah, there will be people being friends with each other. And I'm not sure that having all of these different cultures sitting on top of each other is a problem necessarily. So you know, yeah, not a lot of black folks in SLC, or in Maine either, but there are more in Maine every time I go up there, and that has a lot less to do with integration per se and a lot more to do with people having a reason to move to these little cities in sparsely populated states, where there aren't a lot of jobs to pull people in. Each state is like its own little culture, really, and the process of black folks moving out of the south and into other places is still going on. (Meanwhile, all those white states are losing population as their economic opportunities are limited.)

Also I was so interested to see that the whatever-you-want-to-call-it that went on in suburban Paris was seen as a Muslim thing, it appeared to me, by much of the European media, but black folks in the US looked at it and said, that is a race riot by some people burning down their projects, yo. I think that most countries have their us-and-them issues, and some of them are who gets to be a citizen, and some of them are racial, and some of them are ethnic, and some of them are religious. So the important thing is to see the ones that are around you, and remember they aren't the same as the ones that are going on someplace else.

Thanks so much for commenting. Your viewpoint was so interesting!

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

I care. That is so interesting about the Hays code change. Thanks for this post. I don't really have anything to add except that I read it and found it interesting. (Actually as I kept typing I guess I do have stuff to say.)

I will say that working in Harlem for the last year has been interesting. It is kind of cool to be in the minority when I am walking up Lennox Ave (though as that neighborhood gentrifies the demographic is changing, which is kind of sad.) It isn't always comfortable suddenly realizing you are the only woman or the only person of your skin color, but I think it is a good experience for me. It makes me aware of how other people might feel a lot of the time.

My problem is not so much "white guilt" -- or maybe it is and I just don't think of it that way. I'm worried about offending people by saying the wrong thing, or failing to say the right thing and I get flustered easily. I feel like there is this balance between recognizing and respecting someone's race and labeling them with it. I can't ignore that I am white or that you are biracial or that my best friend growing up was Japanese. But I don't want to primarily identify any of us with race labels. Because we are all complex individuals with identities that cannot be summed up in a word.

Do you remember that old PSA with a grandpa and a kid fishing and the kid says something like, "You know Timmy, he's my Jewish friend." And the grandfather lectures the kid about not labeling his friends racially.

[phoenixsong]

I can't ignore that I am white or that you are biracial or that my best friend growing up was Japanese. But I don't want to primarily identify any of us with race labels.

I had much the same feeling growing up, in Buffalo, NY. There was one black girl in the competition choir, and when trying to identify her to my parents out-of-context one day, I remember desperately trying to find any other way to do so besides skin color.

Living around (but not in) DC now, and oh boy is it different! I definitely appreciate that race is discussed more openly -- but there are still plenty of divisions along race lines in some respects. On the other hand, people of color are just plain more prevalant here, too. This was brought home when I visited friends in Rochester, and realized there was exactly one black family in the entire park -- and they stood out like sore thumbs, even though they probably weren't any different in most other ways from the other people there.

I think, at least where I grew up, ethnicity and religion were a bigger deal than race. But that's likely because race was relatively homogeneous in the 'burbs, while religion became HUGE in my school district when different groups wanted different holidays off, or objected to having to sing particular songs in the winter concert. And everyone knew there were certain areas that were more likely to be Irish, Italian, German, or Polish than other areas.

[stinaleigh.livejournal.com]

I do read your posts on race, but like others have said I often feel unable to comment due to my own ethnicity. Living in downtown Detroit for the past couple of years has given me some perspective though. I remember my first week here going to the Target that was on my way to work. It took me a couple of minutes to figure out what was different. The layout was the same, the products were the same. . . I was the only white person in the store, there weren't even any white employees. I think that is the thing that interests me the most about Detroit itself, is the segregation of the city and the suburbs. In Minneapolis, the stores in the poorest neighborhoods wouldn't be any one ethnicity, there is still a mix but here, the segregation is blatant.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Detroit is sooo extreme in its white flight. It started the trend, and it was always magnified there, so other than like, Gary IN, it's like, sort of crazy what goes on there. Did you have a sense form being in the store that anything else about your shopping experience was different from Minneapolis?

But you know, there you are having a real experience that was about race, and you've shared it with us, and it's real and lived and interesting and you totally DID have something to say! Thank you so much for commenting with that!

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

(Der. Typos. *reposts*)

I am frequently boggled, when I find reminders of how long ago it wasn't since racism was literally legal in various areas of the country.

I guess, there is the evidence that stereotypes and prejudices exist today, and there are the arguments that they don't exist, and it's the latter that makes me want to draw out a timeline for people and say: Look. This was still the law just a few years ago, and it hasn't even been two hundred years since slavery itself was abolished. Cultures don't change that fast, so of course the stereotypes and prejudices are still out there. They're the scraggly persistent weeds that keep popping up because the root hasn't been buried deeply enough yet. So, you know, recognize it, admit it, whatever, and then if arguing that it doesn't exist really does equal a desire for it not to exist, work on it.

If that makes sense.

Given our ability to rally around issues of sexual orientation, I find that to be both sad and frustrating.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but for me, when it comes to things like laws against same sex marriage or interracial marriage, or things like people being blatantly persecuted because of race/ethnicity/sexuality/whathaveyou, it's easy to rally. Those are big, obvious Things That Are Wrong, you know?

When it comes to discussing the nature of prejudice, or philosophies or definitions/examples of some of the elements of prejudice, I tend to want to just shut up and listen (or read). I don't trust that I know all of the ins and outs of what everyone might consider evidence of prejudice because the parameters can be so different for different people. By parameters I mean everything from what word is no longer PC that was totally PC before, to the fact that depending on who you are and what culture/race/ethnicity/gender/sexuality you identify with the rules are different for what it's okay to say or think or do. So, if there is a thoughtful discussion going on where I feel like I'm somehow out of my league, I tend to think that it's better to not participate unless I have something absolutely relevant and informed to say.

I mean. The thing I said at the beginning of this comment post, I feel like maybe that's not absolutely relevant and maybe I'll come off as talking out of my ass, and my gut tells me to just not say anything in that case. But I went ahead and said it because of the point you made about people not jumping into discussions, because I wanted to at least try. Which is not a plea for gentle handling; if I am talking out of my ass, tell me, because I do want to know. :) Just, there's an example of the sort of thing that causes my shut-up reflex to kick in...

[jlh.livejournal.com]

So, you know, recognize it, admit it, whatever, and then if arguing that it doesn't exist really does equal a desire for it not to exist, work on it.

I think that's a fantastic point, actually, because I wonder whether wanting it to not exist equals a willingness to make it not exist, you know? Or that wanting it not to exist equals not really wanting to work on it, wanting the work to be done so you can pat yourself on the back for how advanced and virtuous you are? The insidious thing about thinking that the work is done is that it leads folks to not see what is right in front of them, or to think that whatever hasn't changed cannot be changed, which of course isn't true, either.

As for what is or isn't okay, the thing that makes it tricky is that it's a case by case basis, and it depends on who you are to me and all of that. There are words I am willing to call myself, and words that it's okay for other people to call me, and words that are okay for friends. But it's my responsibility to lay that out for myself, and not someone else's to mysteriously figure it out. But it's in the clash of subcultures that the boundaries get defined, really.

TOTALLY RELEVANT, btw. I think that everyone, really, has something to say on this topic as we all live here in this society. It makes me so sad that so many have commented that they don't dare speak and I'm trying to think of how to say, but you have something to say! You do! So thank YOU for commenting!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

perhaps because fandom is generally white, whiter even than the American and British cultures at large, and white guilt gets in the way. I don't know; I'm not white.

I am--and I don't know either. I don't know if it's guilt. I think it's probably a lot of things that we'll never unpack because we don't talk about it. It's like...there's probably a hump that needs to be gotten over where people can disagree and also be different races, but right now we can't even really get to the disagreement because we seem to always be having two conversations. Like it seems that so many posts I see about non-white people or characters always somehow ends up being about white people--and not in a way that's about their relationships to people of color either. It seems like it's often hard to get people to talk about the issue instead of any other issue in the vicinity.

It has gotten me trying to write a post about race actually, that I've been thinking about since a recent conversation. I feel kind of funny that it's about fictional races, but it was a conversation where people were explicitly using their own experiences of race to understand the fictional scene in a way I thought just went to the heart of why people might talk past each other sometimes.

And also--here's to your being legal! And figuring out why even today there are probably many many people who would see no reason to strike down those kinds of laws.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I so look forward to that post! I think that one of the things that books with fictional races can lead us to do is think about how race works without the overlay of the emotions and assumptions that we ALL carry around with us.

I think the tendency is to think that if there isn't a harm that you can SEE there is no reason for change. If I don't know anyone who's been fired for being gay, why do we need a law to prevent employment discrimination on the basis of sexuality? So if there's a law that no one can enforce, then why does it need to be removed? It's a way of not believing in symbolism or needing to reassure a minority group, as if in doing so one is insulting the majority: don't you trust me? But good fences make good neighbors, no?

[andstillitmoves.livejournal.com]

As not simply a 'white guy' but hey, suburban Australian white guy from an entirely different cultural background, with a history of private school and university education (at UMelb, which is probably the highest academic uni in Aust and therefore tends to be white-or-high-performing-ethnicities), I have never commented for fear I would, ultimately, get it wrong and offend. I am interested, I just don't know if my own alternative experience as minority (gaywise and Aspergers-wise) qualifies me to make conclusions and build bridges and deal with things that are fraught with subjectivity and emotion.

I mean: I've written a 40,000 Seamus-and-Dean fic that I feel I may never post cause it deals with how an Irish white Catholic boy looks at race, you know?

But I think you should keep posting. We need teh voice in the wilderness.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I think as long as you're prepared for the ways in which the parallels aren't exact then experience as another minority is incredibly useful in understanding what is going on, why things are important. You know at a gut level why it even matters, what these people are screaming about, why equality is something worth striving for and not just a slogan. Besides, as you know, getting it wrong is the first step toward getting it right. I know that sometimes folks get tired of correcting, but you know, that's also the way that things move forward. I try to find that balance, myself.

And you will post that story, please.

Thanks for commenting! I really appreciate it!

[melieltathariel.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I appreciate it a lot that you are inviting us to discussion on this. I would contribute more but I am sleepy. :D

[elements.livejournal.com]

I'm always listening. (I'm just not always sure I have something useful to say in response.)

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Thanks! But I totally bet you do, and eventually I will talk about something or other that will ping something that you relate to and have some experience with! So don't hesitate to jump in!

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

I've got nothing new to say here, because you and I have talked about this kind of a lot - but *dolphin noises* eeeeeeee you posted this! Yay! I love that you did!

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

Oh, except that I heard the last half of that same segment on NPR and DAMN, that was interesting.

[morganmuffle]

The main reason i don't comment on posts about race (or talk about it in my own journal) is that I still feel i don't really udnerstand the issues involved when talking about the US, and nine times out of ten the debate is about the US. The again I didn't say a whole lot when it came up in regards to Doctor Who and that was from a British presepctive.

A lot of it is "white guilt" or fear of "getting it wrong" and it is stupid when I'm happy to put my thoguhts down about other subjects I have limited knowledge on. It's just that in and out of fandom you can see the results of debates on race and racism that don't happen in a safe space and they're not very encouraging.

I am reading though, and I do read the debates that show up on metafandom from time to time, I just tend to mull over them and not actually comment but perhaps I need to at least learn to put enough of my thinking into words to show I am actually listening!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on all of this from a UK perspective! It's certainly good for anyone here in the US to understand how race works elsewhere. And it's encouraging for me to know that it isn't just here, but everywhere—it's a universal human condition to have difficulty with difference, I think, and a long slow climb toward getting beyond difference without removing it entirely. That Doctor Who example was really fascinating for me, to be sure.

Thanks for commenting! I really appreciate it!

[a-hollow-year.livejournal.com]

I listen, but I don't comment because I'm a dumb white girl and am so clueless about race and racial issues that anything I say is going to be from such a position of privilege as to be useless and embarrassing. Sorry.

[conob.livejournal.com]

I find it useful to consider sometimes that not all white people in the U.S. are in the same position. Certainly, not all of them are equally privileged re: race! And it's possible for a white person in the U.S. to experience racial discrimination; it just happens less on average, and for some reason it's even harder to talk about sensibly. (People start edging into comments that sound more like a how to suppress (http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/607897.html) index than an actual discussion.)

[scrabble.livejournal.com]

You know, I think that most white people don't realise that things like this are still a problem in the U.S. I never would have imagined that about South Carolina and Alabama until I read this post - I just mistakenly assume that the country is long, long past those kinds of laws. I think that this is partly why you don't see as many passioned speeches about race as you do sexuality, at least in fandom. The thought seems to me to be that the problems with race have been taken care of, but that sexuality still has a ways to go. Which isn't the case, but I think it's very easy for someone for whom race doesn't affect them directly to think that it is.

I didn't know any of this about the Lovings, and it's really kind of fascinating. I had no idea that anyone, ever, was EXILED from a state.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Well, I think at least part of the reason you don't hear passioned speeches about race is that as soon as they get written very quickly in the comments they become about something else, about gender or cats or something. What was remarkable about that SGA race wank a few months ago was how many people were willing to stay on topic, to keep pounding away at it until it could not be denied, and even then there were folks screaming, "you're ruining my fun" or "I'm a scared white person who could never write about a POC because the scary black fans will yell at me" and like, dude, why are you scared of the black folks and not the gay men who run around going "I don't think slash is about me"? It's like the same conversation over and over and over again and nothing gets advanced, which is worrysome.

Sadly we are so not long past these laws, and the idea that we are I think is why things like affirmative action rules are being taken apart, because folks are like, well, we don't need that anymore and it's like, oh, really? Are you sure about that? Then again, I'm not sure that this is entirely about race; plenty of that is about class, and access to education, which is a whole 'nother set of messes that I can't even begin to untangle, to be honest.

Thank you so much for commenting! See, I really think that EVERYONE has something to say. Have some Ted and Marshall.

[ladylisse.livejournal.com]

I suspect that in many cases - and certainly in my own case, more often than I'd like to admit - it's less white guilt and more the worry that out of sheer ignorance, I'll say something monumentally stupid.

And um, things like Alabama and South Carolina (22%? asjidlasd WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE) make me ashamed of humanity. I think because I grew up in a really diverse community and my parents have never cared who the hell I played with, I forget how prevalent some really horrendous attitudes still are.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I think that the only way to find out what to say is to say something, really, and see what happens. It's scary but you know, it's how you learn about how to say anything else. And why on race and not on other matters, I always wonder. I don't think I'm like, you know, that much more knowledgeable just because I'm not white. Though I do pay attention, I'd like to think that we all at least try to. And there are plenty of things that I don't know about and that I'm only learning about now.

Thanks for commenting, I really appreciate it!

[sheryll.livejournal.com]

I don't generally comment on posts about race issues because, as others have also said, I'm quite often either a) ill-educated on the subject or b)afraid I will very much put my foot in my mouth. I figure it's wiser of me to sit back, listen and, hopefully, learn something. It's most definitely not a matter of me not caring, more of being ill-prepared to say anything intelligent.

I'd say that if even one person responds saying they're not well enough informed to comment when you post about race, then yes, you should definitely make more posts. Since I've said I need the education, then post away. :)

Must now go rescue my weird kitty who is trying to put his head under my filing cabinet (a 3 inch space). *sigh* Dumb cat.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Well, but I don't want to put myself in the place of being an educator in this space, not only because that's a claim to authority that I don't want to make, but also because that's a position that I don't want to be in. I'll have to think about how to structure these posts in order to encourage conversation rather than just people reading and nodding and moving on.

Thank you for your comments! I really appreciate them!

[lillijulianne.livejournal.com]

well, i'll be happy to comment, if i feel i have anything to add, or ask!

re "miscegenation"...it's so funny i should read this now, because i just decided not to get involved in a cake argument elsewhere online, and the metaphor i wanted to use had to do with whether people would feel called to "defend" chris and melinda if chemistry between them had been noted.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Which is ironic as didn't the EW online person put forth some Chris/Melinda assertions? Are people "defending" Blordin saying that the anti-Blordins are racist? I mean, Jordin's my girl—we have the same hair. But the age thing squicks me. Anyone writing songs like Blake writes is not particularly interested in a sweet little 17 year old girl. At least, I certainly hope he isn't. And I love me some big black girl nerdy white boy action, as the icon demonstrates.

[inalasahl]

If I felt that my lone voice in the wilderness was really making a difference—if I thought that even one person would link to this, or stop and think about how far we as a culture have and have not come around issues of miscegenation, which is so much at the very heart of what racism means—I'd be happy to make more race posts. I'd like to say that this isn't begging for comments, but to be honest, it is.
Someone linked me to this. My mother is white; my father was Asian. I'm glad you posted.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate that. Two questions:

1. Who linked, my I ask? Yes, my ego is that big/in need of stroking.

2. How do you usually identify? What is your strategy for filling in those pesky forms? Is what you tell others, or how you have become used to others' assumptions, different than how you think of yourself?

Thanks again!

[spark-of-chaos.livejournal.com]

Hi there :)

I'm here via a link on my flist. I loved that entry for a number of reasons I can't quite explain, and I hope you won't mind if I friend you.

Let me say, first, that I come from a country where we don't have and have never had racial issues (ethnical, yes, certainly; racial, never). In our language we only have one word describing (what is apparently the correct word) African Americans (and Africans for that matter), and it is 'nigger'. And rarely, under the influence of US movies, 'black'. We don't use it as an insult. We don't see it as an insult, because in my entire life I have seen no more than a dozen non-white people, and I certainly hold no prejudice. Sometimes, I can't properly understand some of the issues that the US people on flist scream themselves livid about, not because I don't care but because I don't have an eye for those sorts of tender topics where they have lived all their lives surrounded by those topics.

The US students in my uni frown when we say "nigger" and say we shouldn't be prejudiced, and we are like ...um?

Culture is the most interesting thing. Background makes up for so much of who we are.