Tomorrow Night: Marie Osmond for the Entire Hour

[jlh]

Or, some thoughts on RPS.

But first, a rec: Belongs to Us is worth joining punditslash to read. (All the TDS/TCR and CNN/MSNBC type RPS is locked in the comms because the Comedy Central blog has a tendency to link to them.) Fantastic Keith Olbermann/Dan Patrick slash with all the backstory, regret and make-up sex of your average golden age Sirius/Remus fic. Lots of references to their on ongoing drama—if you don't know it, look them up on wiki, but the short version is that they created Sportscenter, made it a legend, and then Keith fucked off and pissed everyone off, wandered the earth for a while, then settled into being pissy at the president on MSNBC while Dan focussed on being possibly the best sportscaster currently working, and then they made up and reunited on Dan's radio show a year ago, and continue to do an hour on the radio every day. They're sort of like Andre 3000 and Big Boi of Outkast—which I'll explain if asked. The title of this entry is from their radio show where they did an extended and completely hilarious riff on Larry King.

The start of American Idol, and more directly my posts about them, always makes me vaguely nervous about the risks of tinhattery that one always runs when thinking about RPS. When I came into HP fandom, LoTRPS was ascendant and it was easy to think of them, and all the RPS-types, as insane loonies that proved that we fiction-fanficcers were pretty sane. There is a strain of conversation that goes on in fandom that's a sort of normative enforcement of sane behavior. We all do it; we point at someone being crazy to show that we are (1) not crazy like that and (2) know crazy when we see it. In addition, some of the people that I hung about with were very, um, ambivalent about fandom and online life to begin with, and therefore were incredibly judgmental about the behavior of others, an attitude that I don't share but that I have had to really stop assuming that nearly everyone else on my flist does share. Because of that early conditioning, I'm always a little nervous about the RPS.

So I thought, more for my own feeling of comfort than any of yours as many of you assure me that you don't think of me as a tinhat, that I would lay out what I actually think is going on, rather than my fun shippiness, so you see that you know, I'm not crazy. Also I was thinking about this after reading the TWoP recaps for last week. From what I've seen, we have four possibilities for what is a actually going on with Ryan and Simon.

1. It's all made up for the benefit of the show. I think there are aspects that are—Ryan's completely irritating goading of the contestants to talk back to Simon, for example. And once something started, of course producers are going to encourage it, though I find it interesting that Simon goading Paula gets more press when more screen time is spent on Simon and Ryan bitching at each other. But one thing that convinced me that it was not manufactured for the show was watching American Idol Rewind and seeing the auditions for season 1, where Simon is already teasing Ryan about his metrosexuality. Remember that in that first season Ryan was only a co-host, just a fairly popular afternoon drive DJ on a pop station in LA, while Simon was the co-creator who was coming in from the very successful Pop Idol, so he really didn't need to mess around with Ryan. In addition, they don't have a lot of actual contact during auditions (unlike during the live shows) because Ryan (with, at that time, Brian) is outside the judging room. So for Simon to go out of his way to interact with Ryan, in a very similar way to which he does now, speaks for a genuine spark of personalities.
   
2. It's good natured teasing between two straight male friends. Except, often it isn't. Sometimes they genuinely piss each other off, cut a little too close to the bone, and while Simon is more ridiculously pouty, Ryan seems to care about all of it a little more. For all his artifice (and there is a lot of it) Ryan does have chinks in his armor. Not to mention that whatever is going on with Simon, I honestly do think Ryan is a big closet case. I contrast this with Anderson Cooper who isn't publicly out but simply refuses to talk about it. Everyone in this city knows he's gay. He isn't particularly worried about chatting up boys in bars, but because he's pretty chill about it and isn't in a gay panic every ten minutes, mostly no one cares. We can't say this about Ryan; on boy's night he's jumpy as all hell. I think we've all seen straight guys who can tease each other about gayness, and it doesn't look like Ryan and Simon.
   
3. Ryan has a thing about Simon, who uses it to play with Ryan like a cat with a mouse. Ugh, it's a bad thing, and actually the subtext of the sort of Rymon RPS that I don't like. Simon clearly has a cruel streak, and much of the time on the show Ryan seems more obviously into Simon than the reverse, but I think that's mostly the effect of Ryan being more obviously gay than Simon is. Also, Ryan can really get his licks in, pretty effectively, and usually to either the amusement or the respect of Simon. So I don't think all the play is one-sided. That said, I think there is more of a kernel of truth here than there is in other options. If we posit Ryan as a closet case whose homopanic gets worse every year, and who spends his highest-rated television time in close proximity to a man he's attracted to which only increases his self-loathing, not to mention that that man treats the whole thing as a joke for his own amusement, then Ryan's weirdo moods make a lot more sense, because there are days that he can convince himself that he can handle it, or that he sees it as a joke just like Simon does, but I'm sure there are days that the whole thing gets to him, because he does actually care, and then the self-loathing is that much worse. Even though he completely does it to himself, you can see why I just want to give him a hug.
   
4. OMG Ryan and Simon are totally fucking. Yeah, you know, I don't think they are. I think that they definitely have some bizarro, enduring, and far more than physical mutual attraction/fascination thing going on because after six years the physical burns itself off, even if it's never consummated, not to mention that they do seem to genuinely enjoy each other's company and have from the start. I mean, they've gone on vacation together, and when they talk not on the show one has the sense that they talk often—on those occasions when Ryan calls Simon from the radio, he's very careful to say that they are on air, and there's always an "I'll talk to you later" closer. Also I think if they were fucking, all this ridiculousness that we see on stage would have long since passed off to their off-screen lives because they'd actually be burning off the sexual tension by, like, having sex.

What do I actually think? Probably a kinder version of option 3. There is clearly a mutual admiration, respect, and attraction thing going on. I would put it as more Simon saying that Ryan is gay, isn't fooling anyone, and should come out already (true) and Ryan replying that Simon, at heart, doesn't just want to be friends with Ryan, so while Ryan isn't out, Simon isn't even honest with himself. It's really messed up, and says a lot about masculinity and sexuality and a pile of other things, and if it weren't so depressing it would make for a good story. Unfortunately it often gets turned to a sort of pointless angst.

All that said, I think I write Ryan/Simon the way that I do not only to make a comment about what is going on with the show—a sort of fictional meta, if you will—but also to make Simon a tiny bit nicer than he actually is, and give Ryan the reward he does deserve, and in general make them both just a little bit braver than they are. Ryan and Simon make a great pair because Ryan is one of the few people who really isn't afraid of Simon one little bit, but also likes and respects him, while Simon responds very well to Ryan and sometimes is just a little bit nicer because of him. And you know how I love couples who can get under each other's skin.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, I've never really been able to get into RPS--hopefully not for judgmental reasons. So far I've just never been able to suspend my disbelief for it--not, ironically, due to thoughts about the people themselves not being into each other, but just, I don't know, something about the world.

But this is totally fascinating. I loved this. I never get to see the show on Tuesday, but I'm totally going to be watching more for this now. What's interesting about it, too, is as you said it gets into the whole tinhat fear that fans have. Because one might ask--what's the crazy part? The writing of fanfic about real people, or the analysis of what might actually be happening? Because the fact is people do the latter all the time, but it's also done to a crazy extent by certain fans when they *need* to believe it's true rather than just thinking it's true. And yet people who do analyze things like this might still point to RPS as if it's strange when the RPS is just a commentary on the same thing.

[toastoos.livejournal.com]

I love analysis on pairings that I love. This is going in my memories.

I agree that it's more likely #3. I think Ryan's attracted to Simon and Simon has a genuine affection for Ryan, but nothing physical has happened or ever will. (Which is a shame, but that's what fanfic is for.)

And your explaination about why Ryan panics so much leading to more self-loathing...oh, that poor boy. It just makes me want to love him more and cuddle him up. It must be so exhausting hiding your true self, even away from the cameras.

[eilujspark.livejournal.com]

Hi. I've been lurking for awhile, and I wanted to add my two cents to this.

Personally, I think it's probably a combination of 3 and 4. I just can't believe that nothing physical ever happened between the two of them. I just think that circumstances make it impossible for them to be really together, hence a lot of the wierdness, and why the tension hasn't really worn off. I think there is a lot of jealousy and a lot of "where do I fit in your life?" mostly from Ryan. Especially when it comes to the show. It probably has to grate when like you said, they focus so much on the "saula" stuff when there is far more fireworks with them. And considering this show is all they'll probably ever have together, that has to suck. That probably leads into a lot of the wierdness with Paula.

I also think that while Ryan has a hard time with his sexuality, Simon does too. Especially when you consider the "ladies man" image Simon seems to have with people. Not to mention the incredibly homophobic way Simon has treated people of questionable sexuality. It just screams "issues" to me.

Add another layer to this, imagine how Ryan feels that Simon is able to pull off the het image (fairly)well, and he can't. Especially if they are having sex. THAT has to cause much tension. Kind of a "Do you think that you are more of a man because of that??"

Anyways, that's a small bit of my thoughts on the matter.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I think that for some people speculating about the lives of real people is upsetting in some way, in a way that writing about fictional characters is not, as though writing about those characters isn't the violation that writing about the real people is. Of course, legally, it's the other way 'round, not to mention that you can't libel the dead. People write speculative fiction about real lives all the time! At the same time, people speculate on the lives of celebs all the time, too--look at all the chatter about Britney. I don't know her, I don't know if she's on drugs, but I can have a conversation about what I think is going on.

I think that the crazier fans always make everyone unhappy, and fan interaction with actors and creators is always nerve-wracking. But I mean, it really is the same sort of thing, to say, "this is what I think is going on" and then to say, "wouldn't it be interesting if this other thing were also going on." In a way, I wish that Ryan were having a big damn love affair with Simon, because I think that would be a happier situation than the one he's in, being King of the Closet. But I don't really look at what is going on and say, "See!"

Then again, I don't look at fiction that way, either. I mean, I'm right, I'm wrong, whatever. I've never gotten into those sorts of games. I'd rather the sort of, "this is interesting" sort of meta than the "and I am so so right" sort. And I've always thought of my fanfic as also being a comment on the text. It is not the same as textual analysis, of course, but rather taking one aspect of what is going on in a work and exploding it. If that makes sense!

But yeah, Ryan and Simon? Someone could write a book. Never mind that if TWoP takes Rymon as almost a given, and they've gotten to the point where they've made a joke about the two of them fucking on SNL, you know, it's in the zeitgeist.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

The thing is, if Ryan would just come out, at least privately, then he would have some random bf and he wouldn't be sucked into Simon's bullshit. Instead, he lives in a hell of his own making, and it makes me feel hyper maternal.

Thank you so much!

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you about Simon. I think the big difference is that Simon is closeted even to himself—I'm sure that Ryan by now knows he's gay, and may even be out to a very small number of people, which is why he gets so jumpy. And in a larger sense, it's something that Ryan has over Simon, who I doubt has the self-knowledge to understand what is going on. Like, Ryan isn't out, but Simon isn't even out to himself. Which is probably why he can pull off the image better than Ryan can, but also, Ryan is more visible and simply allows himself to be dishy and call people darling. I'd feel better about all of this if I felt Ryan were more in on it, the way Anderson is.

As for whether they are sleeping together, I mean, I don't know. They certainly could be, which is a whole other level of fucked up, and there are rumors about that in LA. Whatever they were doing at one time, at least, they're still doing. But I don't think that's the actual source of the Ryan-Paula conflict. I think Ryan is tired of managing Paula and he really needs everyone to be very professional around him. He can manage Randy and even Simon but Paula can get the show off timing if Simon doesn't cut her off. (That, and Ryan has a strange thing about women he works with sometimes—Talk Soup's Joel McHale refers to Ryan and Giuliana DiPandi as "an old married couple staying together for the sake of the kids.") But it IS weird how the general media does the Paula/Simon story while all the comedy media pokes at Ryan/Simon.

Thanks for delurking!

[toastoos.livejournal.com]

He really does need to wisen up. I could see early on he might think it would hurt his career. But he has a name for himself now, and if he came out (and didn't make a big deal out of it) no one would care after the first week.

I dunno about Simon though. He's the kinda man who likes to be in control. So, I'd wonder what his reaction would be if he didn't have that kind of control over Ryan anymore.

[thepodsquad.livejournal.com]

*waves shyly* Hi! I found this through idolslash, and just found your idol posts delightful and then ran across this.

And oh, I love this topic.

For me, I have never ever, ever been an RPS girl, never been into shipping real people with each other (especially when there isn't concrete evidence that they ARE together). But...for some reason, I find the interaction between Ryan and Simon fascinating. I don't necessarily think that anything has ever happened (or will ever happen, ever) physically between the two, but SOMETHING is going on. Something almost HAS to be going on between the two of them.

I even ended up writing my first RPF about them, which I was kind of horrified about, but my Ryan/Simon friend requested it...and it just sort of happened. But while I was writing it for her, I quickly realised that in no way could I have anything physical happen in the fic, because it felt all wrong and just...not the way they are.

To me it's just this bizarre dance they do with each other. They both acknowledge that they are REALLY good friends, but to my eyes there is definitely another level to it, some sort of subtext that goes on with them. They both say they're friends with Randy, but there's just nothing even similar between either of them and Randy, and that's always what made me think there was something going on. And on top of all that, Simon seems to be a very physically affectionate person, very handsy sometimes, he's kissed Paula numerous times (and I know I've seen him at least give Randy a little cheek peck), but for the most part, aside from the choking they love oh so much, it seems like he and Ryan are very hands-off on camera.

And all this rambling to say, that I totally loved your post a whole bunch, and I think I agree that it's a nicer version of 3. I don't think it's mean-spirited at all, but especially in the radio interview when Ryan called Simon to talk about the unflattering angles and fat rolls on his hips was just...a great, great example of the weirdness between the two of them.

Shutting up now. And sorry for just dropping in all weirdly!