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first times, established relationships, and breaking off from canon
So I was reading an essay on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
metafandom by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
minisinoo about suspension of disbelief in slash, in which she says:
This idea—that all ship fic has the burden of "selling the ship"—is something I've rejected for a while now, though I've never talked about it much specifically. But I do have a problem with it, and this essay makes it easier for me to organize those thoughts, finally.
I see this in a context of a lot of essays that get written about the "dangers" of the OTP or shipfic, who talk about fic for shippers being lazy whenever it doesn't completely make the case for a ship to the non-shipper. I don't see my job as a writer to be "selling" anyone about anything. I mean, I'm not a copywriter. I'm not putting in a carefully researched "reason to believe" with documentation available to the FTC upon request, or showing you the blue water pouring into the absorbent padding. If I wanted to do that, frankly I'd write an essay, which seems to be what this person wants me to do. (And have; I co-wrote theship_manifesto on Seamus/Dean.) An essay is a document that is meant to convince, by design. It includes assertions and (hopefully) proof of those assertions. It plows into canon and finds those canon moments that establish the ship. Those essays link to fics that really are about convincing non-shippers about a ship—often, first-time fics that do all that heavy lifting.
But in a story, in order to convince a non-shipper of the validity of a ship, I would have to take the reader carefully by the hand either from the last moment of canon, or the last moment of canon from which I have broken off, and through every stage of the relationship until that relationship becomes sexual. (Obviously we're talking about non-canon ships here; canon does the work for you in canon ships.) That requires writing a first-time fic.
Now, I know that first-time fics are popular, but I don't always want to write a first-time fic, and I certainly don't always want to read a first-time fic. And in order for an established relationship fic to reach this level of convincing—to bear that burden of proof, to include that "reason to believe"—it has to have essentially a mini-first-time-fic embedded fairly close to the beginning of the fic. I don't want to always read or write a three-sentence first-time fic in the beginning of the established relationship fic. To me, that gets in the way of having the established relationship fic in the first place.
For example, I write all this Ryan/Simon, but except for the AUs, I've never actually written a Ryan/Simon first-time fic. I might never write one. I don't find the first time they realized they were attracted to each other—which I believe to be roughly a nanosecond after they met—to be all that interesting. I have written a sort-of "figuring out this is more than sex" fic, but even that is more Simon presenting himself and Ryan saying "okay" without a whole lot about Simon's journey—though I have alluded to it in other stories. Therefore, I haven't written that "convince you" Ryan/Simon fic. If you watch the show, and you're not seeing the ship, I probably haven't written anything that will "sell" you on the ship.
Sometimes in the reviews for Eight Ways from Sunday readers would say that I had sold them on Seamus/Dean, or less often, Draco/Ginny. (They were usually already sold on Harry/Hermione before reading it.) However, that wasn't my goal as a writer; I wanted to write a story about friendship and romance. I wasn't thinking, "these are the moments in canon that make me ship Seamus and Dean, and therefore I have to include references to them in this story in order to sell as many non-shippers on this pairing as possible." I just wrote a story, and hoped it was good, and hoped that the characters all interacted in a way that made sense for the relationships that I was setting up—romantic or not, slash or not.
I've also written smaller stories, like Pretty From Behind, where I don't say anything at all about how a non-canon pairing got together, even though the story is set some years in the future (in this instance, Harry and Hermione are married and in their late twenties). Pretty from Behind isn't that short—about 3000 words—but it also isn't about how Harry and Hermione got together. It's about Harry and Hermione exploring their sexuality with each other, mostly. And I'm not sure that I have to say how they got together, even though of course it's in the same universe as EWFS. That's in my head, sure, and I say that, but the reader is under no obligation to read the first story.
I read plenty of ship fics, usually for relationships that I ship, and I don't expect all of them to do all that heavy lifting from canon to the start of the fic. In fact, one of the things I like about established relationship fics is that they are free of that burden, and instead go on to a problem that I think is much more urgent, and ironically much less explored or expected to be explored in fic: what happens after they declare their great love? What happens after the wedding, the moving in together, the deliberate decision to be a couple? How do they work around their differences, especially if they got together in a highly charged situation? For example, with Harry/Draco, their having lots of sex within a highly codependent relationship during the war makes a lot of sense to me—but how they stay together after the excitement of war is over, how they have a peaceful life together (if they do) is much less clear. For that reason, I like post-canon established relationship fics—and I don't require that they give me all that much at the start about exactly how the couple got together.
It's for these reasons that I get a little testy when people talk to me about how all fics must lead the reader from canon to the start of the fic, or must "convince" the reader of a ship. I reject that all fics must do this. Certainly, that isn't true of all of my fics. And how limited we would be, if all fics had to bear this burden! But I also reject that the fics that don't do that are therefore lesser "OTP" fics. That label is a bit of a slur at this point, and I find that to be a shame.
metafandom by minisinoo about suspension of disbelief in slash, in which she says:This is why I tend to have problems with OTPs -- both slash and het. There's a sense of "assumed inevitability" that must be bought into off camera rather than built within the story itself. The writer assumes the reader accepts the pairing even before reading. As long as readers do, all is well ... but it won't convince those who don't already see it. (And that often includes me, I'm afraid.)
Frankly, there's little I see as a given about relationships. I want to be wooed into believing by a well-told tale. In turn, I extend that courtesy to my readers. I don't expect you, the reader, to see anything as a given, either. It's my job to sell it to you.
It's ASSUMPTION that kills the believability of a story. Show, don't assume. Build the case. Convince me.
This idea—that all ship fic has the burden of "selling the ship"—is something I've rejected for a while now, though I've never talked about it much specifically. But I do have a problem with it, and this essay makes it easier for me to organize those thoughts, finally.
I see this in a context of a lot of essays that get written about the "dangers" of the OTP or shipfic, who talk about fic for shippers being lazy whenever it doesn't completely make the case for a ship to the non-shipper. I don't see my job as a writer to be "selling" anyone about anything. I mean, I'm not a copywriter. I'm not putting in a carefully researched "reason to believe" with documentation available to the FTC upon request, or showing you the blue water pouring into the absorbent padding. If I wanted to do that, frankly I'd write an essay, which seems to be what this person wants me to do. (And have; I co-wrote the
ship_manifesto on Seamus/Dean.) An essay is a document that is meant to convince, by design. It includes assertions and (hopefully) proof of those assertions. It plows into canon and finds those canon moments that establish the ship. Those essays link to fics that really are about convincing non-shippers about a ship—often, first-time fics that do all that heavy lifting.But in a story, in order to convince a non-shipper of the validity of a ship, I would have to take the reader carefully by the hand either from the last moment of canon, or the last moment of canon from which I have broken off, and through every stage of the relationship until that relationship becomes sexual. (Obviously we're talking about non-canon ships here; canon does the work for you in canon ships.) That requires writing a first-time fic.
Now, I know that first-time fics are popular, but I don't always want to write a first-time fic, and I certainly don't always want to read a first-time fic. And in order for an established relationship fic to reach this level of convincing—to bear that burden of proof, to include that "reason to believe"—it has to have essentially a mini-first-time-fic embedded fairly close to the beginning of the fic. I don't want to always read or write a three-sentence first-time fic in the beginning of the established relationship fic. To me, that gets in the way of having the established relationship fic in the first place.
For example, I write all this Ryan/Simon, but except for the AUs, I've never actually written a Ryan/Simon first-time fic. I might never write one. I don't find the first time they realized they were attracted to each other—which I believe to be roughly a nanosecond after they met—to be all that interesting. I have written a sort-of "figuring out this is more than sex" fic, but even that is more Simon presenting himself and Ryan saying "okay" without a whole lot about Simon's journey—though I have alluded to it in other stories. Therefore, I haven't written that "convince you" Ryan/Simon fic. If you watch the show, and you're not seeing the ship, I probably haven't written anything that will "sell" you on the ship.
Sometimes in the reviews for Eight Ways from Sunday readers would say that I had sold them on Seamus/Dean, or less often, Draco/Ginny. (They were usually already sold on Harry/Hermione before reading it.) However, that wasn't my goal as a writer; I wanted to write a story about friendship and romance. I wasn't thinking, "these are the moments in canon that make me ship Seamus and Dean, and therefore I have to include references to them in this story in order to sell as many non-shippers on this pairing as possible." I just wrote a story, and hoped it was good, and hoped that the characters all interacted in a way that made sense for the relationships that I was setting up—romantic or not, slash or not.
I've also written smaller stories, like Pretty From Behind, where I don't say anything at all about how a non-canon pairing got together, even though the story is set some years in the future (in this instance, Harry and Hermione are married and in their late twenties). Pretty from Behind isn't that short—about 3000 words—but it also isn't about how Harry and Hermione got together. It's about Harry and Hermione exploring their sexuality with each other, mostly. And I'm not sure that I have to say how they got together, even though of course it's in the same universe as EWFS. That's in my head, sure, and I say that, but the reader is under no obligation to read the first story.
I read plenty of ship fics, usually for relationships that I ship, and I don't expect all of them to do all that heavy lifting from canon to the start of the fic. In fact, one of the things I like about established relationship fics is that they are free of that burden, and instead go on to a problem that I think is much more urgent, and ironically much less explored or expected to be explored in fic: what happens after they declare their great love? What happens after the wedding, the moving in together, the deliberate decision to be a couple? How do they work around their differences, especially if they got together in a highly charged situation? For example, with Harry/Draco, their having lots of sex within a highly codependent relationship during the war makes a lot of sense to me—but how they stay together after the excitement of war is over, how they have a peaceful life together (if they do) is much less clear. For that reason, I like post-canon established relationship fics—and I don't require that they give me all that much at the start about exactly how the couple got together.
It's for these reasons that I get a little testy when people talk to me about how all fics must lead the reader from canon to the start of the fic, or must "convince" the reader of a ship. I reject that all fics must do this. Certainly, that isn't true of all of my fics. And how limited we would be, if all fics had to bear this burden! But I also reject that the fics that don't do that are therefore lesser "OTP" fics. That label is a bit of a slur at this point, and I find that to be a shame.
no subject
If someone is reading Barney/Robin HIMYM fic, I don't think its to convert themselves into being fans. It's because they're ALREADY sold on the ship.
When 30 Rock first started I was originally into Jack/Liz. But then Floyd came along and I was into Liz/Floyd. And I didn't really think much about Jack/Liz again. The break between season 2 and 3 I started reading Liz/Jack fic. Mostly because someone on my FList commented on how they "never wanted to picture anything going into to Tina Fey let alone a penis"
This is where it got me. There was a news story a few years ago where someone found a finger in their Wendy's chili. So instead of never wanting to ever eat there again. I got in the car and got a Frostee.
So someone saying how awful Liz/Jack fic was made me go and read some. And most of what I read they were in an already established relationship. So I ended up reading like 100+ fics in one weekend and I got completely hooked on the ship. I don't think it was the authors or the stories itself that sold me really. It was just sort of accessing something that was already in the back of my head.
If you watch American Idol and in the back of your mind you're like "Simon and Ryan are adorable" and then go read some Rymon fic... chances are it'll push you over to full on shipping. Something makes you go out and look for the fic. You usually don't just HAPPEN TO STUMBLE UPON IT.
If someone linked me to some Smallville fic of Chloe and Clark chances are it's going to take a hell of a lot more than "showing me how they get together" for me to buy into the ship. Not because I have any personal feelings for them. I've seen one or two episodes of the show. I know nothing about these people. If someone posted 100 links of fic on their LJ of fic how they got together, chances are I'd scroll past it.
So basically long story short (too late), I don't really think it's your JOB as a writer to sell anything. I used to write fic and from my end I'd just want it to be even the tiniest bit believable regardless of if its first time or established. Setting the right tone and getting the voices of the characters down always seemed more important than "will I convert a non-shipper into one."
And if that is your priority as a reader to be convinced... skip it. Go to the next story. Or write your own. Put these characters into a situation where YOU believe that you'd buy into the ship. But don't expect other people to give a shit about your hang ups.
Having said all that, I do tend to enjoy getting together stories more than I do established stories. Not because I need to be convinced. Mostly because I like the build up. Like watching a Romantic Comedy. You know where it's going but getting there is the fun part.
But then there are the days where I like established fic. I'm usually already sold on a ship when I read those. Those tend to be more real I think. You can throw any two idiots in a room and eventually know they'll probably bang. But its after all that where it's tricky. Trying to show that these two people good for each other and here is why.
IDK. This went on way longer than I wanted to and I think my point was completely lost lol.
no subject
Well, that's it right there, isn't it? Either someone has recommended it to you, or it was written by someone on your flist who's probably been yammering about the canon and/or the pairing for a while, or you went looking for it. But as you say, in all of those cases you at least knew what you were getting into. If you already dig the ship, you'll dig the story to a certain extent; if you don't dig the ship, you won't dig the story no matter what the writer does; if you're indifferent to the ship, you're probably indifferent to the characters in the ship, and therefore will be indifferent to the story as a whole.